How old until you expect a pup to bay?

Man that is a tough question...sometimes. When I first started, I would give a dog a year or so....man did I waste a lot of time. If a pup doesnt show intrest between 6-9 months, I dont keep them. Doesn't necessarily mean they are a cull, I just have expectations that a pup must meet be certain times periods. It sounds like you've given them several opportunities. If they run and hide like you say, that would be enough for me. 4.5 months is young, but I've seen a lot of pups that age that show a lot of interest, most bay real well from outside a pen.