brother and sister breeding ?

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

had an accidental breeding between siblings . both dogs are exceptional hunters , just wanting to know the pro's and con's of these results .  thanks

[Curcross1987]

Are they line bred or scatter bred dogs if they are line bred it could work if they are scattered bred then I think it is to tight to fast

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

i was told they were line bred and the guy i got them from is a pretty stand up fella .

[M Bennet]

I breed bro/sis and you just have to cull harder

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

thanks monty , im down to 3 out of 6 . if 1 out 3 turns out ill be happy lol

[Reuben]

how old are the pups?

[barlow]

Not sure what you mean by cull harder. If you normally cull the substandard pups out of outcrossed litters . . what more can you do out of close, family matings? Kill em twice?  Whether it's an outcross or a brother X sister litter . . I keep as many of the pups as possible and I slowly whittle em down to kindling. I have an accidental brother X sister litter right now and I already have my eye on a couple as least desirable and a couple as most desirable. At this stage it's all appearance and personal preference issues. As they grow they'll fail or succeed based on personality and performance issues. But nowhere in this process will witchcraft or superstition play a role and my selection process is exactly the same regardless of the relationship of one parent to the other. I try to keep a good one and try not to keep a sorry one.

[Reuben]

Not sure what you mean by cull harder. If you normally cull the substandard pups out of outcrossed litters . . what more can you do out of close, family matings? Kill em twice?  Whether it's an outcross or a brother X sister litter . . I keep as many of the pups as possible and I slowly whittle em down to kindling. I have an accidental brother X sister litter right now and I already have my eye on a couple as least desirable and a couple as most desirable. At this stage it's all appearance and personal preference issues. As they grow they'll fail or succeed based on personality and performance issues. But nowhere in this process will witchcraft or superstition play a role and my selection process is exactly the same regardless of the relationship of one parent to the other. I try to keep a good one and try not to keep a sorry one.

excellent post Barlow...and keep as many as what you think are the best pups and slowly eliminate the least desirable...and hope to end up with the best pups when down to the last 2...for me the final selection can be between 10 to 14 months of age...

breeding brother to sister can get you to where you need to be sooner than later

[Cajun]

  I had a accidental breeding of full litter mates & the results were pretty good. The only thing that I was surprised at, the pups were not as gritty as I thought they would be. The father was basicly a running catchdog & the mother was a great bay dog but not catchy. All the pups I kept track of had all the speed, drive, nose you could want but none of them were what I call gritty.
  I wish I knew how to pick the best pups out of the litter. I can only pick pups who have the  physical characteristics that appeal to me.The biggest pup in the litter does not always mean it will be the best hunter or have the most ability. I think I will start another topic on this subject.

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

how old are the pups?

they are 6 days old today

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

reuben , i was hoping you or barlow was going to chime in , i love reading yalls posts! good stuff.....

[mike rogers]

This little website has a lot of posting on breeding and genetics. If you get a chance check it out. Some of it is long and takes a while but there is a lot of great points and ideas.

http://americanleopardbreed.proboards.com/

mike

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

cool thanks

[TexasHogDogs]

In the old days the brother x sister breeding was done and used as a mesuraing stick to were you were at with your line of dogs.  It was only done to gauge were you were at in your breeding program.   By that I mean if the bro x sister liter produced you some really good dogs and more good than bad then you are in a good place with your breeding program if the liter tuned out more number 2ty than good then you knew your line of dogs were a long ways off from were you needed to be and you either needed to dump that line of dogs are do some serious work on it .  A man can either ruin his line of dogs with breedings like this and not knowing what to do are it can make a line even better but only if you know what you are doing.  For instance if you have a bro x sister breeding from your great line of line bred dogs and you got ten pups seven are culls two are no better than the mom are dad and one way better than average and you take these dogs and breed back into your line most the time it is a mistake because they are carrying a ton of bad family genes even tho they turned out good themselves .   We always went by the percentage of the liter instead of how great the dogs were themselves.  On the other hand if you do this same breeding and you got ten pups and 8 are as good as the mom and dad and you got to aces now this is a high percentage liter of dogs .  Then you take dogs from this high percentage liter and you breeding some of these back into your line of dogs with some little cross in there here and there and boom man you are in business .  This bro x sister breeding helped you because they are carrying a high percentage of the great genes and very little of the bad genes from your family and again it was gauged by the percentage of the liter not how great two dogs were out of ten and the rest culls .  Go by the liter percentages and you will end up on top of things , go by the great dog and chances are you will end up on the bottom if you don't know what you are doing .

[TexasHogDogs]

When it comes to real breeding tactic's people get to hung up on who is the best , who is the ace .  I only want to breed to the best most gifted dog in the liter .  When a lot of it depends on how the dogs are bred , how high a percentage was the liter , is it line bred dogs , inbred dogs are outcrossed dogs all this plays into factors of how a dog will produce .  Like I said most the time a man only wants to breed to the very very best dog in the liter when if they are heavy family bred dogs and in a high percentage liter the old Avarage brother may be the one that out produces them all .  As a matter of fact in a high percentage good liter you breed to the top dog in that liter I will breed to the old average Joe that is great at nothing but good at all things and represents the family in traits , color , looks and actions and nine times out of ten this dog will out produce the top dog in the liter every time .

[DOGMAN HOLLIS]

real good info thanks

[Reuben]

for me the best time to breed brother and sister is early in the breeding program...this is to tighten up the gene pool and cull out some of the obvious bad traits...then I would keep the pups I believe to be the best...keep as many as possible...keep an eye on all the pups...test them and socialize them...gunfire, winding ability, trailing and ranging...as they get older cull down as needed...if they are early starting dogs you should be down to 4 pups at 5-6 months...hang on as long as you can to them...take them out to lakes and creeks and see who swims, strongest swimmer etc...etc...you will learn what type of body style will make the powerful swimmers...also take them out and see who ranges out and leads the other pups around...once you see a natural leader leave that one at home and see which one will step up on the next time out...if all pups follow one pup at a young age that is a good sign...stage a few hunts and see how they do...bay pen work is good to see what each pups is made of as well...as they get older cut down some more but at least try to hang on to three pups if at all possible...four is better but I would keep two as a minimum...I would then get one of the pups and breed back to the best side whether it is the male or female and repeat the culling process...or keep the best female and male pup and breed them to each parent...I would look long and hard at each parent and decide which side is possibly the best...does not have to be parents but an aunt or uncle will work...especially if they have some good breeding behind them...keeping the very best for hunting and breeding...for me that is the best way...it is possible to get 100 percent turn out at some point in time...from good to great...

I look for natural ability first and as often as possible...natural ability begets more natural ability...if you choose pups that make a round the first time they are turned loose in the woods and hit the slough like a lab then you have a pup that will make you proud...genetics is driving and that is what you want to retain so that you will raise the chances of getting more of the same...keeping a dog for 3-5 years just to see if it will make it might be ok for some...but one that turns on at 3 years I will never know...at least not in my yard...because dogs like that begets more of the same...when one knows dogs we see a progression as the pup develops and it is up to us to decide if the pup is on that curve...their is no doubt the more tracks we feed a dog or pup the better but a well bred dog can be kept in a kennel for the first 2 years of its life and in a few hunts be a pretty good hunting dog...in my opinion there are many sorry dogs out there because people set the bar too low and make excuses for their dogs...we have to call it like it is and make adjustments accordingly...

[Reuben]

for me the best time to breed brother and sister is early in the breeding program...this is to tighten up the gene pool and cull out some of the obvious bad traits...then I would keep the pups I believe to be the best...keep as many as possible...keep an eye on all the pups...test them and socialize them...gunfire, winding ability, trailing and ranging...as they get older cull down as needed...if they are early starting dogs you should be down to 4 pups at 5-6 months...hang on as long as you can to them...take them out to lakes and creeks and see who swims, strongest swimmer etc...etc...you will learn what type of body style will make the powerful swimmers...also take them out and see who ranges out and leads the other pups around...once you see a natural leader leave that one at home and see which one will step up on the next time out...if all pups follow one pup at a young age that is a good sign...stage a few hunts and see how they do...bay pen work is good to see what each pups is made of as well...as they get older cut down some more but at least try to hang on to three pups if at all possible...four is better but I would keep two as a minimum...I would then get one of the pups and breed back to the best side whether it is the male or female and repeat the culling process...or keep the best female and male pup and breed them to each parent...I would look long and hard at each parent and decide which side is possibly the best...does not have to be parents but an aunt or uncle will work...especially if they have some good breeding behind them...keeping the very best for hunting and breeding...for me that is the best way...it is possible to get 100 percent turn out at some point in time...from good to great...

I look for natural ability first and as often as possible...natural ability begets more natural ability...if you choose pups that make a round the first time they are turned loose in the woods and hit the slough like a lab then you have a pup that will make you proud...genetics is driving and that is what you want to retain so that you will raise the chances of getting more of the same...keeping a dog for 3-5 years just to see if it will make it might be ok for some...but one that turns on at 3 years I will never know...at least not in my yard...because dogs like that begets more of the same...when one knows dogs we see a progression as the pup develops and it is up to us to decide if the pup is on that curve...their is no doubt the more tracks we feed a dog or pup the better but a well bred dog can be kept in a kennel for the first 2 years of its life and in a few hunts be a pretty good hunting dog...in my opinion there are many sorry dogs out there because people set the bar too low and make excuses for their dogs...we have to call it like it is and make adjustments accordingly...

I meant to say the grand parents and aunts and uncles...and breed the pups back to where you see something you like and breed in that direction...analyzing the dogs heritage and then choosing a direction is very important...I place as much importance on that as I do choosing the pups as best I can...The goal at some point in time should be to have every dog in the back yard worthy of consideration to be part of the breeding program...that is if one wants to breed their own line of dogs...at least it should be a consideration...

[Reuben]

Aunt and Uncle on my previous post meaning from 1/2 brother or 1/2 sister to one of the parents...and looking at the bloodlines carefully to decide which is the best was to go...quite a few options to lack at and go with what you feel is best...