Finesse......do you look for this in your dogs?

[Wmwendler]

Finesse:
1. extreme delicacy or subtlety in action, performance, skill, discrimination, etc. 
2. skill in handling a difficult or highly sensitive situation; adroit and artful management:

To me this is is one of the most important traits that I want In my dogs.  It is right up there with Desire, bottom, and speed.

For instance.....a group of sows and half grown shoats can be hard to bay and keep bayed as a group.  Too much pressure and they will bust in no time.  On the other hand some boars have it in there head that they are gonna run off from the word go and it takes a lot of pressure on that kind of hog to put the mash down on them and make them bay.  Now in my opinion, in order for a dog to be able to work correctly in both situations and produce the desired outcome (bayed hogs), they have to have finesse.  This trait is also what makes the dog back up and bay once that boar stops running. If they dont have the finesse to know to stop pulling hair once the boar decides to bay up they are likely to cause him to keep running. 

I have seen a dog make 60 yard diameter loops around bedded hogs in order bunch them up, then make 20 yard diameter loops around them once he had the hogs bunched and baying up in a BIG clump of brairs.  I shot a hog out of that group and ofcourse they busted bay....Then on a big sow out of that very same group he was pulling hiar to get her stopped and hammering away at her from a few feet away when I shot her.  That is my idea of finesse.  In my opinion it is a trait that is only in Cur dogs and easily washed out of Curs when crossed with other dogs.  Therefore I think it is genetic, but can be refined with expereince to some degree, but cannot be gained with experience if the genetics are not allready there there.  The dogs I hunt with are not perfect or super dogs, the dog mentioned above is certainly not.  But this is the ideal that I strive for and breed for, allong with bottom, desire, and speed.  Does anyone else recognize this as a trait or look for it in thier dogs.  Tell me what you think.

Waylon

[longshot]

Now in my opinion, in order for a dog to be able to work correctly in both situations and produce the desired outcome (bayed hogs), they have to have finesse.

You are exactly right!  Only I call it brains .......LOL     This is a trait that not all dogs posses and most people seem to overlook it when talking about a dog.

I prefer a dog to asses the hog\hogs and then determine for that situation how much and when to apply the pressure.

In simple they need to be gritty\rough enough to stop a hog but have enough brains to know when to bay and when to bite.   Nothing pisses me off more than when I see a bay dog bite or nip a standing hog.

I have gotten to watch a single dog bay a descent boar buy standing 2-8ft away and chopping but when the boar lost intrest she would nip it and spin off to the other side.  She only touched the hog when he had lost respect and was thinking of moving.  One dog could work a hog like that and keep it bayed all day.

This same dog has been known to eat the arm pits out of a running hog but wont catch or touch a hog that is standing

A dog with brains or finesse should know when to pull hair, when to bay and when to catch.
Longshot

[BRUTE]

Now in my opinion, in order for a dog to be able to work correctly in both situations and produce the desired outcome (bayed hogs), they have to have finesse.

You are exactly right!  Only I call it brains .......LOL     This is a trait that not all dogs posses and most people seem to overlook it when talking about a dog.

Longshot

Yep, lots of muts catch hogs. Its the good ones that have finesse, brains, or what ever else you want to call it.

To me this is is one of the most important traits that I want In my dogs.  It is right up there with Desire, bottom, and speed.

Yes Sir.

[duece24]

my question is do you think this is also a trait that can be taught or developed with time? say when a dog is young they have a tendency to be more aggressive with the hogs, but as they get older and more experienced they learn to back off if there is no need to be rough?

[BRUTE]

my question is do you think this is also a trait that can be taught or developed with time? say when a dog is young they have a tendency to be more aggressive with the hogs, but as they get older and more experienced they learn to back off if there is no need to be rough?

Definatley. 

[catchdog7469]

In my opinion this is in the breeding, but is a skill that is developed  / honed over time with experience and is part if what I look for in my selective breeding. The Bottom line is if a dog Doesn't have "brains" he won't last long either because they can't produce results or they step up when they should have backed up. A dog with this well honed skill should be able to stop a hog and hold him solo in most instances. Just my thoughts.

[duece24]

       Yes they can Duece24,but if your running hounds   vs    curs its gonna take a longer time span cuz hounds really don't mature untill around 5-6 yrs,so if you still running that hound be patient its gonna take some time but in the end it may be worth it.

yeah i'm still running him. taking my time with him but need him in the woods more to keep lessons learned fresh on his mind. i'm learning patience...lol

[jheffern]

 In my opinion finesse is one of the things that seperates great dogs from good dogs. i agree with catchdog that it all comes down to the genetics  of the dog. To me with my limited experince of hog dogs and what i have read there are two ways a dog aquries finess. 1 Brains: its learned with experince. 2 Instinctual: bred into the dog to come natrually dog (kinda like fight or flight response). Dose this make sense to any one or i am trying to put to much in it?

[Bryant]

I agree that your definition of finesse is a very important attribute of a great hog dog, but often one that is overlooked.  I also agree that it is a trait that seperates good from great.  There are many factors that make a good or great dog what he is.  Hunt, Nose, Stamina, Bottom, Desire, Heart and Finesse are just a few.  Very few people (myself included) are able to truly have a dog that has a perfect set of all these qualities.  If it were so, we would only need to hit the woods with one dog (and a catchdog if desired) to make things happen.  My answer is a pack of dogs, each having his or her strong points that all come together to make a team.

As far as genetics, I agree with you Waylon.  No one has ever bred hounds into their dogs to better their baying ability and no one has probably ever bred curs into their hounds to better their hunting drive.  Each has their own genetic ability that they bring to the table, and yes they can be refined.  But remember...refining is the act of perfecting something that is already there.

[BRUTE]

I agree that your definition of finesse is a very important attribute of a great hog dog, but often one that is overlooked.  I also agree that it is a trait that seperates good from great.  There are many factors that make a good or great dog what he is.  Hunt, Nose, Stamina, Bottom, Desire, Heart and Finesse are just a few.  Very few people (myself included) are able to truly have a dog that has a perfect set of all these qualities.  If it were so, we would only need to hit the woods with one dog (and a catchdog if desired) to make things happen.  My answer is a pack of dogs, each having his or her strong points that all come together to make a team.

As far as genetics, I agree with you Waylon.  No one has ever bred hounds into their dogs to better their baying ability and no one has probably ever bred curs into their hounds to better their hunting drive.  Each has their own genetic ability that they bring to the table, and yes they can be refined.  But remember...refining is the act of perfecting something that is already there.

Very well said.

[duece24]

Very few people (myself included) are able to truly have a dog that has a perfect set of all these qualities.  If it were so, we would only need to hit the woods with one dog (and a catchdog if desired) to make things happen.  My answer is a pack of dogs, each having his or her strong points that all come together to make a team.

i think many people forget this. you very rarely find a dog that has all the qualities you are looking for. i think most people decide what they need most and focus on that and concede on other things. like you said the answer to that is to get another dog that is strong in what your dog isn't. everyone is trying to breed up that winner of a dog. that dog that has it all but mostly we get those dogs that are darn good but are still lacking in one area or another.  again you decide what you can live with and what you can't live with.

[BRUTE]

I have always king of wondered about that. Like you said, every one tries to breed up the superdog. My mentality had always been what attributes does my pack need. I have yet to see one dog do it all by itself around here. Some of the best dogs I have seen work were always complimented by one or two others. They could do it by themselves... but it wasn't the same.

[catchdog7469]

I have always king of wondered about that. Like you said, every one tries to breed up the superdog. My mentality had always been what attributes does my pack need. I have yet to see one dog do it all by itself around here. Some of the best dogs I have seen work were always complimented by one or two others. They could do it by themselves... but it wasn't the same.


Thats cuze I got him

[duece24]

Thats cuze I got him

lolol