proven cross

[jdt]

this is probably gonna be a can of worms but here goes . lets say you were going to try a new cross out of 2 top notch dogs , lets say to make it easy she had 10 pups.  i would say to be a good cross pups should be as good as the parents or better. the question is what percentage of the pups should turn out for the cross to be called proven?

[hoghunterdfw]

im not a dog breeder but imho you have to have SEVERAL litters with at least 70% of the pups working good to consider it proven.

[Noah]

im not a dog breeder but imho you have to have SEVERAL litters with at least 70% of the pups working good to consider it proven.

Sounds like a good description to me.

[Bryant]

John,

With my tiny bit of genetic knowledge, this is the way I see it.

To me, proven simply means you made the cross and the pups worked.  As for what percentage, that really can't be determined with an unrelated breeding pair.   When you breed two unrelated dogs, your going to end up with pups that quite possibly can be very different from one another.  One breeding may put ten pups on the ground that all are jam-up, then the same breeding a couple years later can produce a set of dogs that are no count at all.  This is rare, and you better your odds if both parents are exceptional dogs and you know their lineage but this is the reason why sometimes people will have a brude gyp that really isn't that good of a dog but produces really good pups.  She's simply passing on inherited but not expressed genetics.

Often times I think people get the idea that if they take two dogs and breed them, that the offspring will automatically be a 50% mix of each parent.  Genetically they will, but I'm talking about expressed traits.  Some may favor the sire, some may favor the dam, and some can express traits or behaviors from generations back.  Those are called "throwbacks".

The only way to consistanty produce the same set of genetics is through linebreeding which is no easy task in itself.

[jdt]

i agree fellas,
                  let me rephrase the question a bit. the parents are from the same proven line, what % of the pups would have to pass inspection before you considered it a proven cross and made it again with the confidence that you could garauntee the pups?

   i know what i think, i would just like to hear others thoughts on the subject.

[scdogman]

a cross or proven cross.  I take that to meaning of a particular male and a particular female.  
When someone says its a proven cross, I think they have mated those dogs before.  Around 40%- 50% would be great.  


Even when breeding dogs of the same breed.  I don't think most breeders are getting 50% pups that are as good as the parents.

[Black Gold]

I think there is so much individuality involved that it makes it impossible to put a number on it.  Even with pure bred dogs.  I think background lines are very important, especially with hybrid crosses.  I know some guys that wanted a certain cross and found one dog that was excellent at doing what the dog was being bred for.  THe other breed of dog they wanted to use in the cross was so-so and no where near what the guy was looking for, but it was the best he could find so he bred the 2 anyway.....

I think a lot of folks make this mistake when cross breeding.  They are seeing the breed in their mind and not the individual dog....letting defects slide on account of the "breed".....I feel this is a huge mistake, especially when cross-breeding, but one that is made often....Thinking one super -dog and one good breed of dog will make EXTRA super pups, but actually the percentage of duds ends up high...

I myself am working on a RCD cross.  I have worked hard to find lines of hunting dogs that excel in the areas that I am trying to reproduce....not just those dogs, but their parents and grandparents.....It has not been easy and there is no guarantee what I have in my mind will even work, but for me it is a goal and project i'm willing to invest time and money in and I'm not trying to make money from it so there is no stress in that department.....just a personal goal that I'm working towards.  For me it is fun and a part of life that I really enjoy.  If it works great...if not, well I had fun trying.......If you can go about it like that then you have nothing to loose.  If you have another agenda or it becomes no longer fun then maybe you should re-think......Cross-breeding definately will have ups and downs that you should be willing to deal with.

[jdt]

i hear ya cody!  without folks like you willing to do the homework and put in the hard work we wouldnt have some of the good breeds we have today.

              iknow there are alot of variables. im not talking about crossbreeding or trying something off the wall like breeding a poodle too a number 2zoo for some purpose or another.   i guess what im getting at is this. the folks that have developed a line for years  and breed 2 dogs for the first time that have the traits they have been breeding for. those 2 dogs SHOULD cross well , but sometimes a particular dog dont cross well with another particular dog. in your mind what would the %of the pups that worked above average need to be to consider it a successful cross?

  all opinions are wanted but mainly those of you that have experiance either first or second hand in developing  or continuing a line of dogs

[jdt]

this aint a loaded question,   i just wonder what some of the better breeders expect from a cross.