Raising, Starting, and Working Dogs-Time Factor

[BA-IV]

There seems to be a good number of litters thats hitting the ground or have hit in the past months, so I wanted to ask some questions of some older guys.

My question to guys that raise a number of dogs and keep whole litters, how do you find or manage the time to work ALL the pups?  I expect dogs to get it done on their own so hunting em by theirselves with older dogs help, but I would have to hunt 6 days a week to really give em the time they need. I know hardly anyone does this, so how do y'all make up for the lack of woods time when determining each pups ability. 

I stress out over raising three pups and getting them started, so I couldn't imagine raising a whole litter, but its coming down to me doing this because I'm after the best dog possible and picking pups is a crap shoot. You keep two pups and get one killed, well you're back to square one, keep to many and your overloaded. So where's the happy medium, and the logical answer would be keep a few more then two but a few less then all of them, but that's not the answer I'm after.  Hunting pups together is aggravating because of the play factor ( playing vs. working or paying attention). So what do y'all do? Do your dogs suffer with the lack of hunting, do y'all throw em all on the ground, work the pups that catch your attention. 

Not so much a thread of how you teach your dogs to hunt (there's a bunch of them already) but more about the time put into individual dogs and then as a group of pups, and the work in raising litters of pups.

[boarboy]

well if i have pups ill wait until they are older enough where if a hog runs over them it wont scare them. at about 4 months i will work them in a pen pick out the ones that are the most interested after a week or so cull what needs to be culled set up a mock hunt see where it goes from there but i dont put a dog in the real woods until at least 8 months

[jsh]

BA IV - I only get to hunt 1-2 times a week, 3 on a good one. I have the same issue as you it sounds. I've gone to the "quality over quantity" theory with dogs. I usually like to raise one pup a year on average, last year it was two and this year it will be two. I know that doesn't sound like much to some, but it really is when you're teaching them to get back, load up, pen up, trash breaking off chickens cows horses, social skills and getting dog box time as much as possible. Yes at any time if anything happens you are out a lot of time and $$, but that's why I run "bay" dogs it decreases  their chances of an early career greatly. I would hate to put all that time and effort into a rough or catchy dog personally. Between work, hunting, kids and being heavily involved in youth sports my time is maxed out!  Don't know if I helped you or not, but you are not alone with the time issue.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Great question, BA. The way that works for me---------
NEVER wean pups just because they are 5-6 weeks old. Wean them only when they develope enough confidence to leave their mother and go explore. I play with my puppies so they develope confidence in me. It's all about confidence. The pups that do not go to the woods until they are 4-6 months are already handi-capped and behind.

Realise what "windows" are. Example: Windows of opportunity--young puppies are wide open to accept many things--few things bother them and they easily overcome the things that DO spook them. As a puppy grows up, these "windows" close up. Have you heard of the old dog set in his ways? Don't believe me? Take a 6 week old puppy to Pet Smart (or Tractor Supply), then take your year old dog to Pet Smart. You will probably have to drag the older dog through the door, and he will "dread" the whole experience, tail tucked and pissing himself. Yet the 6 week old pup will have his tail up and want to meet everybody. Take advantage of "windows"---they close up as a puppy ages.

I take my puppies well away from the other dogs and I start shooting around my puppies when they are 5-6 weeks old with a .22. I make sure that I am not in eyesight of any dogs that maybe gunshy, as puppies pick up on the reaction of other older dogs. I will fire off a round and immediatly drop down and play with my pups--pshic them up. Pretty soon they think a gun shot is cool--it becomes positive not negative. Do this with older dogs, and you will probably have gunshy dogs. Windows of opportunity.

I take the whole litter for short walks in the woods when they are 5-6 weeks old. I will stop and all the puppies will sit down and watch me. I do not make eye contact with them or say anything--just ignore them. Bump them down if they jump on me. It might take a minute or two, but pretty soon, ONE of those pups will get up and leave, folowing his curiosity and his nose. He just made my "A" team. Soon another will follow suit.  The last to leave become my "suspect".

Do this 2-3 times a week--see if the star pupil keeps getting stronger or weaker. See if your suspect starts to improve. After a few times in the woods, your puppies should be following their olfaction. They should be ranging out of sight--expect them to get out 50 to 100 feet--remember, they are just little puppies. What you are doing is allowing them to develope CONFIDENCE. Dogs/puppies need to "download" all the smells they will encounter when they become adults. Don't worry, EVERY dog has to sort out trash scent, in order to NOT jump hog scent.

At 5-6 weeks old, my pups see the hogs, and will bay through the fence. Maybe a minute or so and go off and be puppies. They see the hogs everytime we go for a walk to the woods. Again, I look for the pup that starts first, and the pup that starts last. At 3-4 months These pups get to go in with the older well started pups and bay a soft hog. When they get grabby, they graduate up a level to a tougher hog.

This is what works for me. I really believe in working with "windows". As with everything, there are those who prefer a different way. But this works for me.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Got a little progress report. I have a litter of 5 puppies, they were 10 weeks old yesterday. Today is the 5th time they have been on their walk. They remembered the hog pen and bolted to the fence and bayed their guts out. I let them bay a few minutes, called them off, then headed to the woods. As I was crossing the fence, they all scattered out ahead of me, noses to the ground. Not far, and they kept checking back in with a "visual" and leaving back out. I let them cruze the woods for 15 minutes, called them in, and headed back to the house. As soon as we stepped out of the woods, the pups bolted to the hog pen again 80 yards across the pasture and started baying again. Called them off and headed to the stock pond--they took their first swim. Beings catahoulas, they fell in love with the water. I'm watching these guys develope like camera film. Proud of them as 10 week old pups.

[BA-IV]

Thanks for the answers. Let me rephrase this alil.

How are you guys starting 5 and 6 pups and whole litters even, give the amount of time that each pup truly requires, and get the desired results you're wanting? Especially when it comes time to start hunting them.

[KevinN]

There seems to be a good number of litters thats hitting the ground or have hit in the past months, so I wanted to ask some questions of some older guys.

My question to guys that raise a number of dogs and keep whole litters, how do you find or manage the time to work ALL the pups?  I expect dogs to get it done on their own so hunting em by theirselves with older dogs help, but I would have to hunt 6 days a week to really give em the time they need. I know hardly anyone does this, so how do y'all make up for the lack of woods time when determining each pups ability. 

I stress out over raising three pups and getting them started, so I couldn't imagine raising a whole litter, but its coming down to me doing this because I'm after the best dog possible and picking pups is a crap shoot. You keep two pups and get one killed, well you're back to square one, keep to many and your overloaded. So where's the happy medium, and the logical answer would be keep a few more then two but a few less then all of them, but that's not the answer I'm after.  Hunting pups together is aggravating because of the play factor ( playing vs. working or paying attention). So what do y'all do? Do your dogs suffer with the lack of hunting, do y'all throw em all on the ground, work the pups that catch your attention. 

Not so much a thread of how you teach your dogs to hunt (there's a bunch of them already) but more about the time put into individual dogs and then as a group of pups, and the work in raising litters of pups.

Amen brother! I've got three now that are using ALL my free time. Fall and winter are easier on me but I'm busy as heck right now!

[Corey]

IMO.. my objective would not be to start every pup in the litter, rather to have the whole litter to evaluate the breeding and have the cream to work with. That can start at 2-3 weeks old with plain old observation. Progressively give them opportunity a.d test to continue your evaluation based on your own criteria. I would not even attempt to test each individually until i had skimmed the cream down to 2 maybe 3 pups before their ever old enough to keep up with old dogs. As far as commitment of time, pups have next to no attention span to start with, a hour an evening is gonna give a guy a very good idea of natural attributes of each pup. If a guy has has clear goal set it should be pretty easy to see who doesn't make the grade and who consistently outshines with regards to your objective. 

[TShelly]

Thanks for the answers. Let me rephrase this alil.

How are you guys starting 5 and 6 pups and whole litters even, give the amount of time that each pup truly requires, and get the desired results you're wanting? Especially when it comes time to start hunting them.

Hey Ben. We definitely did some extreme puppy training, these last two years with Briars class and Lexi's, along with the newest batch too.

Some of the best times I had was last year taking 5 or 6 pups with their dam or sire; hopefully teaching them The Way. Its pretty cool to see pups come out that hunt identical to their daddy or momma. So much so you'll continuously mix up the dogs every time you see them, cutting across a pipeline or distant pasture. The best thing to me though, is to force the pups to find the hogs theme selves, it leads to lots of  WALkING, frustrating deer running, cow baying, coon chasing days but it's a joy when they start stumbling up on the hogs themselves. With time hunt after hunt, you can slowly see the true naturals emerge. From there you can cull or remove the others as necessary. Take those few top picks and begin refining them with the older dogs.

Our best pups once proving them selves will then start getting put down with older dogs when we track hunt or go on serious hunts. From there you just carry them to the woods and show them pork, let their natural ability show itself. 

[Reuben]

Great question, BA. The way that works for me---------
NEVER wean pups just because they are 5-6 weeks old. Wean them only when they develope enough confidence to leave their mother and go explore. I play with my puppies so they develope confidence in me. It's all about confidence. The pups that do not go to the woods until they are 4-6 months are already handi-capped and behind.

Realise what "windows" are. Example: Windows of opportunity--young puppies are wide open to accept many things--few things bother them and they easily overcome the things that DO spook them. As a puppy grows up, these "windows" close up. Have you heard of the old dog set in his ways? Don't believe me? Take a 6 week old puppy to Pet Smart (or Tractor Supply), then take your year old dog to Pet Smart. You will probably have to drag the older dog through the door, and he will "dread" the whole experience, tail tucked and pissing himself. Yet the 6 week old pup will have his tail up and want to meet everybody. Take advantage of "windows"---they close up as a puppy ages.

I take my puppies well away from the other dogs and I start shooting around my puppies when they are 5-6 weeks old with a .22. I make sure that I am not in eyesight of any dogs that maybe gunshy, as puppies pick up on the reaction of other older dogs. I will fire off a round and immediatly drop down and play with my pups--pshic them up. Pretty soon they think a gun shot is cool--it becomes positive not negative. Do this with older dogs, and you will probably have gunshy dogs. Windows of opportunity.

I take the whole litter for short walks in the woods when they are 5-6 weeks old. I will stop and all the puppies will sit down and watch me. I do not make eye contact with them or say anything--just ignore them. Bump them down if they jump on me. It might take a minute or two, but pretty soon, ONE of those pups will get up and leave, folowing his curiosity and his nose. He just made my "A" team. Soon another will follow suit.  The last to leave become my "suspect".

Do this 2-3 times a week--see if the star pupil keeps getting stronger or weaker. See if your suspect starts to improve. After a few times in the woods, your puppies should be following their olfaction. They should be ranging out of sight--expect them to get out 50 to 100 feet--remember, they are just little puppies. What you are doing is allowing them to develope CONFIDENCE. Dogs/puppies need to "download" all the smells they will encounter when they become adults. Don't worry, EVERY dog has to sort out trash scent, in order to NOT jump hog scent.

At 5-6 weeks old, my pups see the hogs, and will bay through the fence. Maybe a minute or so and go off and be puppies. They see the hogs everytime we go for a walk to the woods. Again, I look for the pup that starts first, and the pup that starts last. At 3-4 months These pups get to go in with the older well started pups and bay a soft hog. When they get grabby, they graduate up a level to a tougher hog.

This is what works for me. I really believe in working with "windows". As with everything, there are those who prefer a different way. But this works for me.

excellent post Salty...

I will add a few more...training pups is very easy...not really training just exposing and conditioning is all it is...

A litter of pups is a lot of work feeding and cleaning behind them when we have a job to go to and then make the time for the pups...but if we are serious of selecting the very best for breeding, then keeping as many as possible is the only way...I keep a watchful eye on all the pups until 8 weeks of age...I will cut down t 6 pups at 8-10 weeks of age and these pups are conditioned to wind some and gun fire at a very young age...I look for good range and pups with a good nerve...I run drags every afternoon before feeding them...I continue to do this until they start trailing on their own...I walk the dag line with the pups after hiding the drag...once they master it I set up winding conditions for them...this is very easy to do but this must be done after the drag procedure is mastered...otherwise they will learn to wind and circle and will not run the track...so learning to track is first...at around 12 to 16 weeks I cull down to 4 or 5 pups...but after I know who has a nose to wind and trail and who bays a pig and who is ranging out...at around 6 months I cull down to 3 or 4 pups...At about 10 months I am down to 3 pups unless I know 2 or way ahead then I might cut down to 2 pups...one of the last things I test for is how long will they stick to a track with the big dogs...

It wasn't a straight answer because I believe it is very important to give a detailed explanation as to how I have done and why... I will continue to follow this as best I can because it works for me...

[BA-IV]

Now that's the kind of answers I'm looking for Tony.  Thanks, it's always great to hear how other people do it.  It kind of broadens one's horizons and may even help make a few better dogs in the process.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Great question, BA. The way that works for me---------
NEVER wean pups just because they are 5-6 weeks old. Wean them only when they develope enough confidence to leave their mother and go explore. I play with my puppies so they develope confidence in me. It's all about confidence. The pups that do not go to the woods until they are 4-6 months are already handi-capped and behind.

Realise what "windows" are. Example: Windows of opportunity--young puppies are wide open to accept many things--few things bother them and they easily overcome the things that DO spook them. As a puppy grows up, these "windows" close up. Have you heard of the old dog set in his ways? Don't believe me? Take a 6 week old puppy to Pet Smart (or Tractor Supply), then take your year old dog to Pet Smart. You will probably have to drag the older dog through the door, and he will "dread" the whole experience, tail tucked and pissing himself. Yet the 6 week old pup will have his tail up and want to meet everybody. Take advantage of "windows"---they close up as a puppy ages.

I take my puppies well away from the other dogs and I start shooting around my puppies when they are 5-6 weeks old with a .22. I make sure that I am not in eyesight of any dogs that maybe gunshy, as puppies pick up on the reaction of other older dogs. I will fire off a round and immediatly drop down and play with my pups--pshic them up. Pretty soon they think a gun shot is cool--it becomes positive not negative. Do this with older dogs, and you will probably have gunshy dogs. Windows of opportunity.

I take the whole litter for short walks in the woods when they are 5-6 weeks old. I will stop and all the puppies will sit down and watch me. I do not make eye contact with them or say anything--just ignore them. Bump them down if they jump on me. It might take a minute or two, but pretty soon, ONE of those pups will get up and leave, folowing his curiosity and his nose. He just made my "A" team. Soon another will follow suit.  The last to leave become my "suspect".

Do this 2-3 times a week--see if the star pupil keeps getting stronger or weaker. See if your suspect starts to improve. After a few times in the woods, your puppies should be following their olfaction. They should be ranging out of sight--expect them to get out 50 to 100 feet--remember, they are just little puppies. What you are doing is allowing them to develope CONFIDENCE. Dogs/puppies need to "download" all the smells they will encounter when they become adults. Don't worry, EVERY dog has to sort out trash scent, in order to NOT jump hog scent.

At 5-6 weeks old, my pups see the hogs, and will bay through the fence. Maybe a minute or so and go off and be puppies. They see the hogs everytime we go for a walk to the woods. Again, I look for the pup that starts first, and the pup that starts last. At 3-4 months These pups get to go in with the older well started pups and bay a soft hog. When they get grabby, they graduate up a level to a tougher hog.

This is what works for me. I really believe in working with "windows". As with everything, there are those who prefer a different way. But this works for me.

excellent post Salty...

I will add a few more...training pups is very easy...not really training just exposing and conditioning is all it is...

A litter of pups is a lot of work feeding and cleaning behind them when we have a job to go to and then make the time for the pups...but if we are serious of selecting the very best for breeding, then keeping as many as possible is the only way...I keep a watchful eye on all the pups until 8 weeks of age...I will cut down t 6 pups at 8-10 weeks of age and these pups are conditioned to wind some and gun fire at a very young age...I look for good range and pups with a good nerve...I run drags every afternoon before feeding them...I continue to do this until they start trailing on their own...I walk the dag line with the pups after hiding the drag...once they master it I set up winding conditions for them...this is very easy to do but this must be done after the drag procedure is mastered...otherwise they will learn to wind and circle and will not run the track...so learning to track is first...at around 12 to 16 weeks I cull down to 4 or 5 pups...but after I know who has a nose to wind and trail and who bays a pig and who is ranging out...at around 6 months I cull down to 3 or 4 pups...At about 10 months I am down to 3 pups unless I know 2 or way ahead then I might cut down to 2 pups...one of the last things I test for is how long will they stick to a track with the big dogs...

It wasn't a straight answer because I believe it is very important to give a detailed explanation as to how I have done and why... I will continue to follow this as best I can because it works for me...

Reuben, Thanx for taking it to the next stages--excellant post.