Food for thought

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I was just sitting here in an idle moment, and of course, thinking of all things dog related, lol.
Well, I was just out back fooling with one of the 'houlas, and I was thinking about how there seems to be a couple prominent "anti" categories on the world of hunting hogs with dogs. One being the anti Catahoula folks. To each their own, I feed what works, however..........I hear a lot of folks attribute the Catahoula's "decline" if you will (there's still plenty of great ones out there) to the fact that people out there started breeding them for looks/color/eyes and all that jazz rather then just working ability. That, as well as the fact that the breed itself became "popular," also resulting in more breeding just for quantity. Now, let me move on to another breed, the BMC. I have been noticing more and more lately that I am seeing quite the abundance of ads on hunting dog classifieds for BMC's.....and....just as you sometimes see folks emphasizing colors on cats as selling points, I'm seeing people on alot of these BMC ads using pedigree percentages of 'popular' dogs names (the Ben dog being a big one) in the peds of said pups. I know we have a lot of die hard BMC folks here. How do y'all feel about this? Do y'all worry that over breeding by folks who want to peddle popular names in pups peds may put a damper on the breed as a whole? Or make it harder and harder to find dogs off of legit working stock when one seeks such? This same mess happened to the breed of the APBT. I just thought this would make for a productive conversational thread. This is not a breed bashing thread in any way shape or form, so anyone who'd like to throw some thoughts and input in this topic, please don't go there, and try and stay on track.

[t.wilbanks]

There's plenty of sorry bmc dogs/breeders out there... Just not as many as the catahoulas... 

Finding a sure enough good dog is hard to find in any breed. I've been through plenty of dogs in the last years and seems like I've had a young pack the whole time because dogs just don't meet my standards..  And I still don't have anything worth a crap...   

[KevinN]

Yes ma'am....

I think your right on track about the Catahoula AND the BMC.

The Yella dogs popularity is through the roof right now. There are people all over the northern states looking for BMC's and having them shipped from the south because there are only a couple breeders up north.

I think...as a whole, the breed will start to suffer but just like with the Catahoula... You will still be able to find some good ones (through Hunters).

[justincorbell]

I was just sitting here in an idle moment, and of course, thinking of all things dog related, lol.
Well, I was just out back fooling with one of the 'houlas, and I was thinking about how there seems to be a couple prominent "anti" categories on the world of hunting hogs with dogs. One being the anti Catahoula folks. To each their own, I feed what works, however..........I hear a lot of folks attribute the Catahoula's "decline" if you will (there's still plenty of great ones out there) to the fact that people out there started breeding them for looks/color/eyes and all that jazz rather then just working ability. That, as well as the fact that the breed itself became "popular," also resulting in more breeding just for quantity. Now, let me move on to another breed, the BMC. I have been noticing more and more lately that I am seeing quite the abundance of ads on hunting dog classifieds for BMC's.....and....just as you sometimes see folks emphasizing colors on cats as selling points, I'm seeing people on alot of these BMC ads using pedigree percentages of 'popular' dogs names (the Ben dog being a big one) in the peds of said pups. I know we have a lot of die hard BMC folks here. How do y'all feel about this? Do y'all worry that over breeding by folks who want to peddle popular names in pups peds may put a damper on the breed as a whole? Or make it harder and harder to find dogs off of legit working stock when one seeks such? This same mess happened to the breed of the APBT. I just thought this would make for a productive conversational thread. This is not a breed bashing thread in any way shape or form, so anyone who'd like to throw some thoughts and input in this topic, please don't go there, and try and stay on track.

Mrs. Krystale, I can't speak on behalf of much of everything you are saying but I can speak of what I know, my curr dogs. I personally am not the  worried about these curr dogs being watered down, I have been lucky enough to slide in amongst a group of men who have worked and proven these dogs day in day out for years......years before I even got into this sport.........some of the dogs that they have talked about were catching hogs while I was still in diapers and to this day they can tell you where those dogs tie into their current stock. I am lucky enough to have my hands on close to a dozen dogs ( adults to puppies) out of the lines im speaking of and I know exactly where they came from and how they are bred so I personally have zero worries about the "future" of the curr dog, as long as I still have a couple of these pot lickers in my yard im gonna be just fine on my end  


I may be overstepping by saying this BUT I don't think that anyone on this site or elsewhere who is serious about the dogs they own is too worried about what the peddlers are brewing. I'd almost bet my last dollar that just like you and I, the guys who hold their own respectives lines ain't the least bit worried about whats going on in the outside world regarding dogs because they like SO many others have good solid stock within their respective lines and they they themselves have been working/ hunting and refining those dogs over the years to mold them into dogs that work and work well.

[OWL Black Mouth Curs]

"fads" have ruined many breeds across the board in all livestock and pet varieties at some point in the last 200+ years. a fad can come in many forms. phenotype, genotype, show ring, performance, consumer demand etc. just to name a few. a top breeder never lets any of these things dictate the animals he is breeding, he breeds to suit his end goals for his personal use, if there becomes a demand for what he does, he never strays from his personal path. a good breeder will see many fad cycles pertaining to his animal of choice through his years. breeding percentages and coefficients are tools, much like epds for cattle, and sire and dam progeny stats for racehorses. all of these tools can be utilized to enhance your personal animals, but all can be abused.
the performance cow and hog dog industry hasn't even come close to seeing the fads that the horse and livestock industries have seen through the years...

here is a fine example, i find this page very informative as to the damages of indiscriminate fad breeding can do to your breed of choice.

https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/cattletype.html

[barlow]

A little worry might go a long way.

I think the dogs most often spoken of on this board have already been greatly affected by fads. I've spent hundreds of hours digging out bits and scraps of old information about dogs and the men who walked behind them. It's one of my favorite things to do. I can tell you that the vast majority of old hunters or cowboys or dogmen, from those over the age of 75 . . . would scratch their head in confusion if you asked them about a Catahoula.

Prior to World War II there was no interest in, no concept even, of trying to make a breed out of the regionalized, get-ahead, cur dogs that were so familiar to them. They were merely a type of dog, more accurately even . . just a tool. For most folks, the thought of registering a cur dog was so foreign . . it would have been like forming a society to prevent the misuse of nails.

There was also little or no interest in separating them according to color. I'm sure there were any number of old-timers who would hold out a shiny yellow one to be his pick . . or maybe someone who superstitiously always chose the leopard pup with the boldest ring neck. But the suggestion of breeding entire color phases out of a family of using dogs would be as random, as arbitrary and as practical as refusing to let Tuesday, Wednesday or Saturday rain fall on your garden. Many a Texan has cursed the rain for falling on a day when he had planned certain other activities . . but I doubt many ever put up tarps to keep it from wetting his crops.

Despite all of the Coyote X Greyhound legends I read on the internet . . . I know a good number of old timers from central Texas who still call anything spotted - a Lacy Leopard. Apparently the Lacy family produced some wicked stock dogs for decades and their reputation spread far and wide. But not just for Blue dogs.

And Yellow dogs became Blackmouth Curs. And Leopard dogs are now Catahoulas.

This litter, born last June, contains a Black n Tan, a Light Tan Leopard, a Black Saddled Leopard, A Saddleback Brindle, a Blue Brindle and a Yellow with Black Mask. The parents were a Yellow Brindle and a Saddleback Leopard. Regardless of their individual color or personality . . . the genes that make them Yellow or Blue are not connected to the genes or memes that make them hunt or lead.



But flash forward from the 40's til now . . and not only do most of these dogs get used 80-90% less, or in completely different applications . . . but they've also been selected for color for generations. Countless thousands of them were killed or culled in order to "train" them to stop producing the wrong color.

At the end of the day, it's up too the owner or breeder to determine what qualities are most important in any line of dogs or in any litter of dogs. But here's my question . . .

There are obviously some good traits in each of the colors of Cur dogs that are now known as breeds. And there are bad traits in all of them as well. But, is it possible that in separating them from each other in the pursuit of what we call beauty . . . that each color phase has taken with them an essential piece of the pie . . some one small thing that prevents any of the color phases from being complete?

[Reuben]

A little worry might go a long way.

I think the dogs most often spoken of on this board have already been greatly affected by fads. I've spent hundreds of hours digging out bits and scraps of old information about dogs and the men who walked behind them. It's one of my favorite things to do. I can tell you that the vast majority of old hunters or cowboys or dogmen, from those over the age of 75 . . . would scratch their head in confusion if you asked them about a Catahoula.

Prior to World War II there was no interest in, no concept even, of trying to make a breed out of the regionalized, get-ahead, cur dogs that were so familiar to them. They were merely a type of dog, more accurately even . . just a tool. For most folks, the thought of registering a cur dog was so foreign . . it would have been like forming a society to prevent the misuse of nails.

There was also little or no interest in separating them according to color. I'm sure there were any number of old-timers who would hold out a shiny yellow one to be his pick . . or maybe someone who superstitiously always chose the leopard pup with the boldest ring neck. But the suggestion of breeding entire color phases out of a family of using dogs would be as random, as arbitrary and as practical as refusing to let Tuesday, Wednesday or Saturday rain fall on your garden. Many a Texan has cursed the rain for falling on a day when he had planned certain other activities . . but I doubt many ever put up tarps to keep it from wetting his crops.

Despite all of the Coyote X Greyhound legends I read on the internet . . . I know a good number of old timers from central Texas who still call anything spotted - a Lacy Leopard. Apparently the Lacy family produced some wicked stock dogs for decades and their reputation spread far and wide. But not just for Blue dogs.

And Yellow dogs became Blackmouth Curs. And Leopard dogs are now Catahoulas.

This litter, born last June, contains a Black n Tan, a Light Tan Leopard, a Black Saddled Leopard, A Saddleback Brindle, a Blue Brindle and a Yellow with Black Mask. The parents were a Yellow Brindle and a Saddleback Leopard. Regardless of their individual color or personality . . . the genes that make them Yellow or Blue are not connected to the genes or memes that make them hunt or lead.



But flash forward from the 40's til now . . and not only do most of these dogs get used 80-90% less, or in completely different applications . . . but they've also been selected for color for generations. Countless thousands of them were killed or culled in order to "train" them to stop producing the wrong color.

At the end of the day, it's up too the owner or breeder to determine what qualities are most important in any line of dogs or in any litter of dogs. But here's my question . . .

There are obviously some good traits in each of the colors of Cur dogs that are now known as breeds. And there are bad traits in all of them as well. But, is it possible that in separating them from each other in the pursuit of what we call beauty . . . that each color phase has taken with them an essential piece of the pie . . some one small thing that prevents any of the color phases from being complete?

"fads" have ruined many breeds across the board in all livestock and pet varieties at some point in the last 200+ years. a fad can come in many forms. phenotype, genotype, show ring, performance, consumer demand etc. just to name a few. a top breeder never lets any of these things dictate the animals he is breeding, he breeds to suit his end goals for his personal use, if there becomes a demand for what he does, he never strays from his personal path. a good breeder will see many fad cycles pertaining to his animal of choice through his years. breeding percentages and coefficients are tools, much like epds for cattle, and sire and dam progeny stats for racehorses. all of these tools can be utilized to enhance your personal animals, but all can be abused.
the performance cow and hog dog industry hasn't even come close to seeing the fads that the horse and livestock industries have seen through the years...

here is a fine example, i find this page very informative as to the damages of indiscriminate fad breeding can do to your breed of choice.

https://www.msu.edu/~ritchieh/historical/cattletype.html

both of these are excellent posts...

I have watched the Houston post and chronicle news paper ads as well as other magazines from the past and have seen many breeds that were ruined by the fads/popularity of the many breeds that were practically ruined because of it...the true breeders were there before the fads and then afterwards as well and staying true to their standard...

originally the price will be very high and you will see a breeder sell out the kennel of german shepards when the price falls out the bottom and then they will go and get a kennel full of Dobermans and then switch to red red nose pits and then to the blue pits on and on each time the bottom fall out...

then you have the competition hounds that hunted for themselves that ruined the breed for the pleasure hunters...same with the retriever breeds...competition dogs versus the hunting dogs...used to be the talk...I do remember all that talk back then and have seen many a fad come and go and yes those fads have a tendency to ruin a breed because folks breed for the money and most don't know what a good dog should look like much less how they are supposed to work...

[Bonnie_Clyde]

MRS Louisiana hog dogger, Love your post and spot on to what your seeing and what's happening. Yes everyone is always trying to invent the wheel. I know everyone is tired of hearing Jordan/Ladner dogs and trying to outdo these great lines that are proven years and years after. Stick with the great ones that have gone through the trial and errors, and your hunting will always be smoother. Lets not leave out another great blackmouth man him self, Bo Nutting. The gentleman Cajun and Hillbilly that truly keep the lines of Plotts the way they were truly breed to hunt!!!

[jpuckett]

Yep I agree. Thats why i buy dogs from proven stock, from lines that have been producing great working dogs. But I still will not breed those dogs from proven lines until I know that dog hunts how I want it to and has no quit in em.

[Reuben]

but this is how it has been in any vocation or you can call it a law of nature...out of 100 bmc breeders you will have 20 above average breeders and of that 20 you will have 4 great breeders...

you will have 20 below average and the rest fall in the middle some a little on the higher side of the average scale and some on the lower end of the average scale...

not only that but you have to look at how much experience the breeders have for what they work their dogs on but those averages still stand even in the work place when looking at human performance in all job families...I see it as a law of nature...

but speaking of experience the 20 percent rule applies in all levels of experience and performance...so back then when people relied on their dogs to round up the livestock, protect the chickens, hunt with the master to catch rabbits and game for the master (who valued every shot), or dogs that also bay it or treed the game, and these dogs had to perform or be culled...so the level of experience from those folks that relied on these dogs was definitely way above what we have because the times and technology has changed and it is not mandatory that we have such a dog because we do it mainly for sport and pleasure and is not a necessity...those folks were way above us in knowing what a good dog was and the 20 percent rule applies to them as well but at a higher level of performance...

[Bonnie_Clyde]

Reuben, it really can't put any better than that!!!

[KevinN]

A "named" line doesn't mean much unless you get a dog/pup FROM the NAME....from the source of the line.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The are SO many people getting BMC's right now. A lot are getting a certain line known for treeing ....mostly as pets...and letting them "hunt" on their evening walks. Then they will become a "breeder" of this named line of dogs. Next thing you know their sister in law also wants one.....and she does the same. This is how it works...

[paul.m]

MRS Louisiana hog dogger, Love your post and spot on to what your seeing and what's happening. Yes everyone is always trying to invent the wheel. I know everyone is tired of hearing Jordan/Ladner dogs and trying to outdo these great lines that are proven years and years after. Stick with the great ones that have gone through the trial and errors, and your hunting will always be smoother. Lets not leave out another great blackmouth man him self, Bo Nutting. The gentleman Cajun and Hillbilly that truly keep the lines of Plotts the way they were truly breed to hunt!!!

Bo Nutting, not to many says that name but man he had some
good BMC for years...

[jdt]

there are still some that make part or all of their living with these dogs .

they don't call themselves breeders , they don't make any claims on their pups and they usually ain't papered . but they can tell you what the pups great xs 10 grandaddy did and every aunt uncle or cousin in between  !


these folks make a livin usin dogs not sellin dogs ... theres a big difference 

[C L]

jdt is correct. Those that still make their livings using these dogs are a real strength for the future utility of the dogs. There are men that have very nice dogs but are known only to a few local folks, and they prefer it that way. And they do know the pedigrees and the work styles of the dogs in those pedigrees, a true performance pedigree. Also, fads mean little to them.

[t-dog]

This is a good little read and once again I find myself on the same page as Reuben. Justin you were fortunate and evidently wise enough to realize your good fortune in getting the stock of dogs you have. My thoughts are this though, who is gonna carry all these dogs on to the future. You alone can produce good dogs because (1) you started with good seed stock, (2) you were mentored by breed savvy people, (3) because you know what you want and expect from your dogs because you've paid your dues and you use them. But, not everyone out there has been that lucky. When these mentors are gone so goes their knowledge. My next thought is that lets say that you raise a few litters over a given time period to be able to carry on your breeding program. Now the excess pups you have after picking for yourself have to be dealt with. Say myself and a couple other folks hear that you are the man to see about yella dogs and all of us want your blood. You have to decide whether or not to allow any of us to get our hands on it. Let's say that of the three of us, one is an experienced hunter, the next one knows just enough to spout the lingo and sound legit-ish, and the last one is brand new. We can all get the same set up from you to start our own little program. In a matter of just a few breedings, a person could go to each yard and hunt with each person and not be able to tell that one yard was at all related to the next. People like different things and breed towards their likes and sometimes it has little effect and sometimes it's drastic. I guess my point is that it's a lot easier to ruin or change a breed much less a family in a breed than it is to improve or maintain them because of all added variables of our modern times. I hope I didn't come across like a jackass Justin. I mean absolutely no disrespect to you. I was just using your comment as an example to express my point.

[TexasHogDogs]

It don't matter which breed of dog it is you have the good and you have the bad .  I have seen men buy and get dogs off of some of the greatest dogs known to man and have thousands and thousands of dollars tied up in some of the best bred dogs in the world.  With that said they could not breed anything that amounted to a hill of beans with all them great dogs from proven dogs and all them thousands of dollars .  It all goes back to the man that owns them, breeds them and works them.  Does he know what he is doing are does he think he knows what he is doing are is it just his money talking making him look like he knows what he is doing ?  A man that does not know what he is doing over time the chit will rise to the top and his whole yard will start smelling like chit and when it smells like chit it is chit !  But these kinds of people can be talked to by someone that is a self made know it all are someone that is supposed to know what they are doing and even tho their whole yard smells like chit that one man can convince them that they have a yard full of great smelling 2000.00 bottles of perfume !  Even tho their eyes and their nose tell them it smell like chit,   their inexperience, ignorances of the breed and how to breed great working dogs and the convincing of the suppose to be expert of the breed has him believing his BS over what his own eyes and nose is telling him .  This goes on and on in todays breeding games .   I got the best this are I got the best that and when you ask them why they will tell you because it is the purest line of old so and so alive today .  Well purity don't mean jack unless its be gone threw with fire and brimstone and with a hard hand .  Thats right !  A persons got "pure" chit unless it can prove other wise in the Field it was bred for in competition are in the woods for a woods dog are what ever you are breeding it for .  There is chit in every breed of dog.  On the other hand I have seen men take scatter bred great dogs and make great great families out of them threw fire and brimstone and hard hands of culling and working .  Dogs that will put a lot of suppose to be pure family's to shame when tested in the fire and not on the paper .  Your take them Hulua's and breed them and put them threw the test and fire and brimstone and in a few years you can shut a lot of mouths !  Ive been there and seen it with scatter bred dogs turn family of dogs with great breeding and hard hands !

If it smells like chit to you it is chit believe your own eyes and nose !

You are a bulldog man you know excatly what am talking about ! 

When the tailgate drops the Bullchit stops !  All talk is then worthless action makes the dog !

[TexasHogDogs]

I dont own either breeds of dogs Houla's are BMC.......But I can tell you this from bulldog experince.  The very worst thing a man can do is get so hung up on his breed are line of dogs that he is breeding them so tight and so pure that he will not make a cross into another line of his breed of dogs because he is all about the puretiy of his line because he thinks it is gold  .  Thats a crock man !  You keep on breeding them dogs over and over and over 100 times this and a 150 times old so and so here and there and watch what happens to that line in the years to come its gonna fall apart .  Its gonna become so condense that you are going to loose just about all that made that line great at one time !  Then to add to that and dont tell me it dont happen because I have been there and seen it and its this . 

" O man this gyp is bred so dang good she dont need testing and she is so pure purest of the pure and no I have never tested her but with the way she is bred it dont make no difference she is gonna produce her ass off !"

That right there brother will get your ass in the biggest crack you have ever been in down the long haul !

Another thing .  O she is a female so she dont got to be tested she is bred so good !  I  test all my males but am a little easy on the great bred females Lmao !   You go brother !  When it hits you in the ass five ten years down the road dont say I didnt tell you so !

Thats all a crock people !  The male and the female both equally make up the pups and they are 50 / 50 so now you tell me how one is more important than the other in the gentic makeup of your pups are you whole yard

This is what tends to happen in the pure breeds no am not saying everyone but yes I am say a lot of them !  Save the blood , save the blood LOL you can tell inexperinced folks this but not somebody that was in the buisness of performace dogs !

[MrsLouisianaHogDog]

I dont own either breeds of dogs Houla's are BMC.......But I can tell you this from bulldog experince.  The very worst thing a man can do is get so hung up on his breed are line of dogs that he is breeding them so tight and so pure that he will not make a cross into another line of his breed of dogs because he is all about the puretiy of his line because he thinks it is gold  .  Thats a crock man !  You keep on breeding them dogs over and over and over 100 times this and a 150 times old so and so here and there and watch what happens to that line in the years to come its gonna fall apart .  Its gonna become so condense that you are going to loose just about all that made that line great at one time !  Then to add to that and dont tell me it dont happen because I have been there and seen it and its this . 

" O man this gyp is bred so dang good she dont need testing and she is so pure purest of the pure and no I have never tested her but with the way she is bred it dont make no difference she is gonna produce her ass off !"

That right there brother will get your ass in the biggest crack you have ever been in down the long haul !

Another thing .  O she is a female so she dont got to be tested she is bred so good !  I  test all my males but am a little easy on the great bred females Lmao !   You go brother !  When it hits you in the ass five ten years down the road dont say I didnt tell you so !

Thats all a crock people !  The male and the female both equally make up the pups and they are 50 / 50 so now you tell me how one is more important than the other in the gentic makeup of your pups are you whole yard

This is what tends to happen in the pure breeds no am not saying everyone but yes I am say a lot of them !  Save the blood , save the blood LOL you can tell inexperinced folks this but not somebody that was in the buisness of performace dogs !

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!