Changing breed standards over time

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Speaking solely about the UKC, they let the individual breed associations determine revisions.  The problem in my eyes is that breeders now these days don't seem to have the the breed in their best interest.  They can't figure out how to get a good consistant quality product (pups that turn into great dogs), so they broaden the breed standards to incorporate what they are capable of producing or even "mass" producing as far as I see it.  If every breed of dog had more people involved that cared about the long term best interest of the breed they were dealing with, we would be better off in my eyes.  I don't like the fact that culls get registered for the simple fact they can.  It is not good for the betterment of the breed.  I can think of other ways to collect $16, and be much more productive long term.

[Randy_P]

Sounds like to need to seek employment into the UKC so you could choose what was a cull and what wasn't

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

I can't get a long with people.  Too many people let their heart dictate what should be bred.  That would be a job where you had to show good customer service.   However, you are right.  I'd be a good judge.

[uglydog]

CBK, I can debate both sides of that statement, just so you know I do agree with your point.  I ma not for show dog people dictatiing the breeds standards of a working dog. I also have a breed that has alot of debate about breed standards and find it absolutely ridiculous at times to try and argue with some.
For example the breed is supposed to be a versatile breed. By German standards it is a versatile breed, but to use the dogs on certain types of game here in the US the breed has changed slightly. The Germans are trying to change the breed stadard as well or actually have, because I researched different leading sires and those foundation dogs of the breed do not fit current standards or types either and at that point I give up trying to work with any type of breed club. When you are talking about a rare breed that has little gene pool that was developed from other breeds every now and then you will have an odd ball pop up, but most likely will not ever reproduce those same traits, do you think it should be culled even if the most important goal of the breed is to hunt? and say that odd ball is nearly as good as it gets, but its conformation is out of standards?

[machine73]

Krystal you have to be talking about the DJT clubs. They spend too much time worrying about ZP scores and not enough time hunting. I can understand your point on some things... depends upon what the oddball trait was.

The various breed and multibreed registries are just registries. Just a tool for tracking a dog's lineage... nothing more. A registration should be not be considered a tool for determining the suitability of a canine for breeding.

Sean

[uglydog]

Yes Sean, you are correct and I am talking about Rollee and his excessive 3/4 of an inch height! and his mild temperment, not wanting to kill all furry animals that breathe!

[machine73]

Hey Krystal, DJTs are a bit big for ground work to begin with, but I think they make up for it in drive and get the job done. I only worry about the dogs getting too big to be versatile, but the proof is in the pudding. If it the dog works then it works, right? I think some of those club guys are playing "whose schwantz ist grosser" vicariously through their dogs anyway. Their own standard calls for a terrier that is neither shy nor overly aggressive. I think they forget that last part. My Hilde is too leggy by their standards but she suits me just fine. The little female I picked up from you... no worries about her being shy.

Sean

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Krystal,

To answer you question, yes I am against breeding to a dog that is out of standards generally.  However, that being said, it truely depends on what standard has been crossed.  In you situation where length of leg is in question, my personal thought on this is that through selective breeding it can be skirted so to say.  For instance, let's say I own that dog.  He is perfect for the breed in every way except he is just a bit to tall.  When looking for potential mates for him, I would eliminate any bitches that were on the high end of the spectrum for breed height.  It would not matter if they were the breed champion.  Tall = don't breed to that male.  As long as the potential female met every aspect I looked for in the breed, and she was on the below average side of height for the breed, she would be looked hard at for breeding to this male.  From there, the process goes to the next generation and so on and so on.

Now, if it was more of a overbite situation, then yes, I remove that individual from the gene pool.  Selective breeding can mask certain negative traits, but mask is all it does.  The traits are still there, and need to be thought about when breeding comes to mind for that animal.  Hopefully, I have not confused you, as I tend to think clearly, but write clouded.


Regards,
Josh

[cantexduck]

 From what I get-
     It is ok for you to skirt the breed standard but not anyone else.
"if too tall find a sort female". 

AKC and UKC is alot like the US govt. They are going to screw up whatever they touch.

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

 
I always appriciate a good pot stirring.  Not biting this time around.  Thank you for your response.

My personal opinion matters to one person on this board, me.  I was satisfied with my response to Krystal.  Just because you own a dog, does not make you a competent breeder. JMO

[txmaverick]

You are right cutter, just because YOU own a dog doesnt make YOU a competent breeder. Just like because YOU have bred dogs that doesnt make YOU a competent breeder.
Very few on here have the right to talk about breed standard much less know them.
Most on here are like me and breed standard means nothing, those of us that dont care about the standard arent trying to change it, we just know what we like and what works for us so we breed for it.

[Mike]

Most on here are like me and breed standard means nothing, those of us that dont care about the standard arent trying to change it, we just know what we like and what works for us so we breed for it.

Yes sir... good post!

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

"The "Hutto Hound" is a Black and Tan cross with Black Mouth Cur, half and half." pulled from your website.

Can't change a breed standard if it never existed.  It's your line, make them anyway you want them.  Maybe one day, I'll see the Hutto hound on the UKC list.  Some how I doubt it though.

[uglydog]

Cantex, The problem I have with breed standards, Is when An individuals(s) create a breed, a few years down the line it gets popular enough to be accepted by a kennel club because it was a good enough type dog that enough people used it. (I am talking about using dogs) The so called popular group are the ones deciding the standards to begin with., not the originator.
For example the DJT, was created from another breed, and many of the foundation stock dogs were many mixed sizes, when line bred back and fourth you will have afew pop out that have traits from way back down the line. Big mouths that are considered the breed experts will allow the dog to be bred if it is a good one, passes all the working tests but the same time they are saying if someone else allows it , THEN it should have been a Cull. Then allow the dog to be imported to the US because his had good scores and good genetics, but when the dog gets in the US it is bred to females that are also good dogs and then the Ameriocans are the ones supposedly ruining the breed, because they are breeding out of standards.

Like Machine said, the proof is in the pudding. You have folks here in the US jumping up and down singing the praises of the breed, that the Germans have the Best dogs, maybe they do for playing feild trials and test scores. But in my mind in order to keep the dog versatile than it has to be worked in reallistic situations to prove and continue to prove the dogs ability.

CBK, I have a dog that does not  want to kill others dogs or all furry creatures, meaning he does not have to live under maximum security, to keep all life around him safe, in German views this dog would be "weak' on the contrary my dog will take a massive beating from the game I desire and keep on ticking, he does not have to be a killer, I have researched though his bloodlines and doubt that this dog will consistenly reproduce his one fault, the excessive 3/4 of an inch. Most likely I won't breed again until we have had time to PROVE it.
I am not trying to get into a debate here or anywhere, I am not looking for approval from anyone, I have already went down that road and figured out the hypocrits are on that breed for myself and not trusting what certain individuals told me. I know where I stand. Its just that breeding and politics will always stir a pot, I am having good dogs and improving that to get better dogs, not to supply the whole country with but rather only to assure that I have what I need when I need it. If in that process I can Have some friends that help me out it sure makes it easier on me, not to have to prove each and every dog myself. It also helps to further research to what is being produced when th nature vs. Nurture issue, when the same dogs are raised in total different handling and enviroments and the end result is the same.
I know breed standards are established for a reason, I believe that reason is to prevent the breed from taking drastic turns and changes. I also feel like 90% of breeds were established as dogs with jobs and kennel clubs only held breed standards to appearance and not temperament or working ability, and those that do field trial dogs,  do better than not having an outlet to try and keep a dog true to its origination, but does little to establish if the dog can truly be all it was designed/expected to be in the beginning.
My feeling come from my own experiences, That when If someone comes along when I am dead and gone and takes up what I was trying accomplish with my own dogs, I can only desire that they will accept a dog 10lbs heavier or lighter into a breeding program if the dog is exceptional at the tasks it is given rather than eliminate that dog and use another dog with lesser working qualities because it was the right size and dimensions. Form Does Follow Function in my book.

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Krystal good post from someone that obviously does her homework.  Most don't.  From one dog person to another, Thank you.

[txmaverick]

that is not the only line i breed
it may be closer than you think to being on UKC, if that were what i was looking to do
but thanks for your permisson to breed the way i like

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

that is not the only line i breed
it may be closer than you think to being on UKC, if that were what i was looking to do
but thanks for your permisson to breed the way i like

I saw where you mention your cats, but I did not bring them up because you don't have any pics of them on your site.  I could not find any pics of dogs on your site, other than what you have as backgrounds.  I figured if you were proud of your dogs, you would have posted pics.

[txmaverick]

Not sure that pics have anything to do with this topic but i can sure post some if you need to see them, you seem to have taken offence to my posts and i am not sure why.
I will say it again most of us that breed for hog dogs dont worry about breed standards because we have found that there is something in the standard we dont like, so we breed to fit our need. That doesnt make us any less a dog breeder than say you or anyone else.

I do agree with uglydog that the originator of a breed needs to have more say in the standard and not someone that doesnt use the breed for what it was bred for.

uglydog have you seen a picture of the orginal airedale sire.......................he wouldnt fit the standard any more today than I would. He isnt even the right color.

[cantexduck]

Cutter,
  I dont do pups. I dont like them. I am not a breeder by any means.

Uglydog,
  I agree.