Good catch dog or catching dog

[t-dog]

We have talked about this before in ways but it’s been a while. Having let my old family of dogs run out like a dummy and them having spoiled me, I’m learning how hard it is to find what I consider a quality catch dog. I have a dog (American) right now that is doing pretty good but he’s not a catch dog yet. Maybe I over think things but when somebody asks is he good or something along those lines I automatically ask myself how to answer that. Do I answer it the way a majority of hunters now would answer or do I answer it the way I see it? Catch dogs are like find/bay dogs to me in the sense of there isn’t just one particular thing that makes them good. If he has one outstanding feature and 5 or 6 poor ones then likely I’m not going to be able to say he’s a catch dog. MY PREFERENCES...first is brains. If they aren’t smart enough to run around a tree instead trying to chew through it to catch a hog then they are useless to me. I want them to be smart enough to go in at a speed that is under control so that they can adapt to changes that might take place while in route. Being under control like that usually means they are smart enough to take a game trail into the hog instead of a straight line. In my country straight line usually means thick briars which means a hung up dog, which means tons of noise trying to plow through or get untangled, which means a tired catch dog and a busted bay. I realize this isn’t always possible and the smart ones will adapt. I watched my old Vegas dog jog a complete circle around a boar that was standing in a little patch of waist high briars that were about 12’ in diameter. There was no trail in so when he got back to me he took a step back and launched himself over the top and came down with a mouthful of ear. If he had tried to go straight through it’s a 100% certainty that he would’ve been tangled and the hog would’ve blown out the back. Doing things like hamming a hog that they’re chasing down until it stops or turns to fight then immediately letting go and moving to the ear is smarts to me. Someone said once that they didn’t want a catch dog to bite anywhere but ear and theirs didn’t. It happened that we got on some open field hogs I caught 3 he caught one. It was a style difference. Both dogs were plenty fast but his would run to the head and every time he was about to catch ear the hog would cut. After the third or fourth attempt he got it but he had to run 3 times as far to do it. Mine hammed all 3 of his and moved to the ear each time. 2 of them were while he was after his one. The other reason for that was that mine was smart enough to understand there might be more hogs coming and he had a willingness to please so when I spoke he listened and obeyed. Disposition is the next requirement I have. If they are gonna do what they want to do when they want to do it even though they know better, then they won’t eat much feed at my place. I’m spoiled to hunting my catch dogs off leash and them only going when I send them. It’s soooo much easier on me and them in every way. Those types usually aren’t as hard to get off a caught hog and settle down faster after they are off. I remember my Meara gyp catching a sow one day and when I threw the hog I told her good girl caught hog. She let go but was so busy licking me in the face that I couldn’t hardly tie the hog. If she put teeth on a hog she was there. I never had an hog get away that she got teeth on and she didn’t let it go until she knew that’s what I wanted. Third is style. I want my dog to have a mark and be aiming for it as soon as they lay eyes on it. Go in at a controlled speed but explode quick just before they engage the hog. Going in too fast and out of control creates lots of missed opportunities. Going in too slow gets them slapped around, cut up, other dogs cut, and busted bays. On that part I want a Mike Tyson style not a Floyd Mayweather style. Being smart enough to get from
in front of the hog when they can is also important. I like them to get the ear back deep in their mouth not out on the end of it. They have more holding power in the back than out on the end. I like smaller K9 teeth(cutters). I think the longer teeth get pulled or knocked out easier because there is more leverage put on them. Huge K9’s aren’t necessary if they have that ear swallowed. Forth is good wind. If they can breath good they will catch more hogs in a day and they will stay cooler and be able able to think better when they are tired. The right build has a lot to do with wind, speed, and overall athleticism. Fifth is fighting. A catch dog that wants to catch anything all the time is not gonna be with me but a minute. Grabbing at other dogs or even people because they are excitable is a grave mistake around here. Calm, cool, and collective is my choice. They have to be catch dog game as well. Pain should only anger and intensify a catch dog. If they quit you at the wrong time because they are cut, hot, or tired they will get you hurt, probably your best bay dog, and possibly get one or all 3 killed. I remember having to army crawl in to a bay one summer. My Clyde dog was in these briars baying and we sent a buddies catch dog. We heard her hit and could hear the fight. I took off crawling because there were only mosquito trails where they had to walk instead of fly because it was so thick. When I rounded a corner, there stood a sow about 180 looking at me from about 10 feet away. Clyde was directly on the opposite side from me baying and his catch dog was laying there like she was by the pool panting and hot. When I sicked her at the hog, the hog obeyed and started to me. Luckily Clyde hammed her and she spun towards him and I dove and got a hind leg and started crawling backwards. The buddy had to go in and get his prize catch dog. He didn’t care for my evaluation of her but he didn’t bring her hunting anymore with me either. If that had been a bad tush hog, me and Clyde might have been in some trouble. To me there is a lot more to a catch dog than just putting teeth on a hog that stood good and hanging on. If that’s all the dog has going for it then it’s just a dog that will catch in my eyes. The dogs that get it done right when it isn’t necessarily a simple “routine” catch and are a pleasure to hunt, are catch dogs.


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[HIGHWATER KENNELS]

Well what you said just about sums up the 1% of the" Quote" Catch dogs out there man,,,  that in my mind is the perfect one that a man only has a few times in his life time.. What makes em be that way,, well I sure don't know ,, cause I got two Dogo Brothers that are not no where near the same .. Like you said before,,, you can call one a catch dog but the other has far surpassed that title in my book.. 

Just the other day I was thinking about what makes the same litter of dogs be so different in variation ,,, two brothers or two sisters that is no where near the same in quality.  You know the ole saying ,, You are what you eat....Lol...  If the genetics is the same in each pup out of a litter, than could it be the way each dogs brain develops as they grow,, the scenarios that they see as  we hunt em and more importantly how they learn from those experiences.. But what you would consider a catch dog,,, everyone should own one of them once in their lifetime ,, and then they would see that dogs are not created equal ,,, just as all men are not created equal...LOL..

[Judge peel]

Now I got two cents worth on this. Now I have had enough bulldogs to make a bridge cross a lake. And this is where I stand on a good bulldog and a dam good one. I figure a decent bred bulldog liter is very equal in ability. Now one big difference will be where does it’s game level fall. That a individual trait just like people. Now let move on to understand standing what he is doing. This is the biggest thing that sets them apart. Now let’s roll everything together and then you have three stages of dog one that works and does what is asked. Then you got one that is smart enough to pick and chose how he does the job. And on the far end you have a animal that actually understands what where doing not just his job and abilities. Then you might be close to a one in a life time dog.


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[make-em-squeel]

Being athletic and hard is big imo. Ive had 2 dogos and 1 AB that I can honestly say never missed a hog or broke a bay in 99% of the situations, they did not bail into the bay like a car crash waiting to happen but would slam a hog hard when appropriate, approached intelligently and that spoiled me. I also like clean holders that dont fight a pig, keep there feet on the ground as not to get dish toweled or worn out wasting energy, that said mine would fight a pig when I cut them closely and they knew I was right behind them but not when it took me 10 min.s to get to them. Another point is after loosing 3 nice pits to drowning in 4 feet of water bc they wouldnt let go as the pig died and sunk I like a catch dog smart enough not to drown!

IMO in "most" bulldogs having good manners is more about nurture rather than nature. The ones I raised like a pet and walked them etc had great handle, vs the ones I only kept on a chain and they learned manners in the woods were much more difficult to lead etc

[t-dog]

I use to think handling was what made them but I know 100% that it isn’t always the case. I raised a litter that were an out Ross to my stuff. The male I kept was a specimen and a great yard dog. My youngest boy and I would take him on 2 mile walks with my then 8 year old leading this 85# beast. The leash never got tight and if it did my boy could tell him to get back and he would do it. But when you went to the woods, it was Jekel and Hyde. He couldn’t hear you, didn’t want to hear you, and would was gonna do whatever he wanted. Let a dog bark and it was over. There would be an obvious trail where you went because he was gonna drag you straight to the bay. Shock collars and butt whoopins didn’t phase him even if it was at the same time. He would just eat it and drive on. Turn him
loose and he would topple full grown oaks crashing through. The last hog I sent him to he took off and went airborne from about 20 feet away and a big limb caught him and sling shot him back about 20. The hog of course broke and they ran him down in about 150 yards. He was worse the more I hunted him. Every dog that carried that out cross blood was just like him with the exception of about 3. It’s hard to find the dogs I described but there are a good many people that have hunted the old family I had and they were consistently this type. We have to breed for it. Selective and strict breeding brings consistency in my opinion.


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[t-dog]

I didn’t mean to sound like I had the greatest or only in my old dogs. Just an example of they do exist because I know there are other people that have these type. Most every catch dog that I read about that is a stand out has these qualities I spoke of. I hope more of these types get bred to each other. It seems like most people I talk to have trouble finding good bulldogs just like me.


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[make-em-squeel]

I use to think handling was what made them but I know 100% that it isn’t always the case. I raised a litter that were an out Ross to my stuff. The male I kept was a specimen and a great yard dog. My youngest boy and I would take him on 2 mile walks with my then 8 year old leading this 85# beast. The leash never got tight and if it did my boy could tell him to get back and he would do it. But when you went to the woods, it was Jekel and Hyde. He couldn’t hear you, didn’t want to hear you, and would was gonna do whatever he wanted. Let a dog bark and it was over. There would be an obvious trail where you went because he was gonna drag you straight to the bay. Shock collars and butt whoopins didn’t phase him even if it was at the same time. He would just eat it and drive on. Turn him
loose and he would topple full grown oaks crashing through. The last hog I sent him to he took off and went airborne from about 20 feet away and a big limb caught him and sling shot him back about 20. The hog of course broke and they ran him down in about 150 yards. He was worse the more I hunted him. Every dog that carried that out cross blood was just like him with the exception of about 3. It’s hard to find the dogs I described but there are a good many people that have hunted the old family I had and they were consistently this type. We have to breed for it. Selective and strict breeding brings consistency in my opinion.


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For sure, thats why I said most, I had a nice AB like that as well, great pet, lead great on walks but would not lead in the woods without pulling hard 24/7 no matter the punishment. He was fine and quiet on a wheeler and consistently hunted 4-800 yd loops as a great 1 out dog. I still got rid of him bc of it just not fitting my preferred style.

[Goose87]

I didn’t mean to sound like I had the greatest or only in my old dogs. Just an example of they do exist because I know there are other people that have these type. Most every catch dog that I read about that is a stand out has these qualities I spoke of. I hope more of these types get bred to each other. It seems like most people I talk to have trouble finding good bulldogs just like me.


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T-dog your right about  breeding dogs like the ones you had, I was asked by a guy several years ago why I hadn’t try to develop a line of catch dogs yet, at the time my response was I didn’t want to overload my plate I was still trying to get a type set in my bay dogs and to be quite honest I didn’t know where to find the type of bulldogs I wanted to start a base with, we had a few experiments we tried off of some good dogs but they didn’t reproduce worth a flip, I hunted with a fella last year that had catch dogs that were better disciplined than most marines and better manners than an English gentleman, luckily a few months ago he sent his old brood gyp which is the mother and grandmother to most of what he catches with to us, one of my closest friends has an old male that has caught some STUDS in his day and most were by himself, he has the catching style and smarts about him as you describe but his discipline and handle isn’t there and a lot of that is bc there wasn’t a good foundation in discipline formed and maintained at an early age, the few guys who put the dogs together that this old male is out of unintentionally made some good crosses that we are able to start trying to develop a family line, I have a son off the old male and a granddaughter off him and she’s also a granddaughter to the old males littermate sister as well, both the young male and the female have a head full of sense with some to spare, my female is exceptionally smart and learns things and figures out thing fast, we’ve got the concoction and catalyst to create some really nice catch dogs (hypothetically speaking), as long as the good lord willing and the creek don’t rise.....


A little food for thought, looking back at the catchdog post and just from general observations through the years, it seems like a lot of the better catch dogs and lines of successful catchdogs, on average are Rednose, looking back on game dog history, again based off averages, the rednose dogs weren’t as popular in the game dog world, I know there are plenty of exceptions that can be thrown out there, and some really great fast lane pit dogs that are red nose, but they weren’t reproduced in mass like other known lines, and also the really good ones were held tight to their owners yards, the breeders of the old family red nose dogs had different standards they bred for, especially the purist of breeders, over time in catch dog work at least it seems as if the cream has risen to the top looking across the board at what type of bulldogs most folks successfully catch with ( excluding anything other than Apbt and their close crosses)...

[WayOutWest]

Goose, one of the reasons I feel that is behind the rednose catchdogs is size. There were a lot of the bigger dogs in the breed come down from those rednose dogs. A lot of the rednose breeders went to the UKC also and that tuned them down some.

[t-dog]

Catch dog smarts are so important when it comes to being great. Great isn’t mythical or unachievable so why not aim for it. When I say catch dog smarts I’m referring to things like body positioning, if sent to an open field hog that’s running they take a proper angle and not run directly to where the hog is when they are sent. Another smart is understanding you when you are talking. I could say look Vegas, and he was scoping out where I was pointing if he didn’t see it before me, or listen Vegas and if he was panting he would shut up and listen. When you can send a dog and  check them off of a running stringer of hogs from the lead hog all the way back to the fifth or sixth hog because that’s the one  you want, it is way past fun. The dog I did that with was a year and a half old at that time and only had about 2 dozen hogs under his belt. The work started at home when he was a pup though and he had the brains and willingness to please to make it possible. To me there are soooo many reasons for the poor quality of catch dogs out there now. One, we have a lot of young hunters that until they started hog hunting, they had never fooled with performance dogs. So they aren’t educated about what potential dogs have, they don’t know what realistic standards to set, and they don’t know how to get the potential out of the dogs. The worst part is you can’t tell them
anything because they caught A HOG and now they know it all. I’ve also seen hunters that had been doing it for a period of time but didn’t know much more about dogs now than they did on day one and it’s because they are more into catching hogs than they are the dogs themselves. A lot of folks that run pretty rough dogs carry a catching dog that will go in and initiate a catch and the hog gets caught because everything piled on not because of a good catch dog. So many people breed a dog because it will catch to another dog that will catch and now there’s 8 or 10 dogs in the world that will catch instead of 2. There were no standards set that the dog had to meet before being bred other than it will catch. The only goal for the litter is for them to catch. None of the other criteria that is required to be quality are present. Now I’m not saying all young or new hunters are this way and I’m not saying rough dog hunters don’t have quality catch dogs. I know several young or newer hunters that will ask for and take any help they can get. I also know of some rough dog hunters that have exceptional catch dogs, Judge Peel comes to mind right off along with some others. These are just things I have seen over the years. So many things that people tolerate, some correctable and some not, that I refuse to. Fighting, refusal to mind, leash chewing/ air climbing/ backflips/ limb grabbing/ screaming, crying, barking post catch/ regrouping, ear chewing are all things that I can’t and won’t do. I’ll try to fix the things that can be but if it takes begging then I don’t have that in me.


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[HIGHWATER KENNELS]

Catch dog smarts are so important when it comes to being great. Great isn’t mythical or unachievable so why not aim for it. When I say catch dog smarts I’m referring to things like body positioning, if sent to an open field hog that’s running they take a proper angle and not run directly to where the hog is when they are sent. Another smart is understanding you when you are talking. I could say look Vegas, and he was scoping out where I was pointing if he didn’t see it before me, or listen Vegas and if he was panting he would shut up and listen. When you can send a dog and  check them off of a running stringer of hogs from the lead hog all the way back to the fifth or sixth hog because that’s the one  you want, it is way past fun. The dog I did that with was a year and a half old at that time and only had about 2 dozen hogs under his belt. The work started at home when he was a pup though and he had the brains and willingness to please to make it possible. To me there are soooo many reasons for the poor quality of catch dogs out there now. One, we have a lot of young hunters that until they started hog hunting, they had never fooled with performance dogs. So they aren’t educated about what potential dogs have, they don’t know what realistic standards to set, and they don’t know how to get the potential out of the dogs. The worst part is you can’t tell them
anything because they caught A HOG and now they know it all. I’ve also seen hunters that had been doing it for a period of time but didn’t know much more about dogs now than they did on day one and it’s because they are more into catching hogs than they are the dogs themselves. A lot of folks that run pretty rough dogs carry a catching dog that will go in and initiate a catch and the hog gets caught because everything piled on not because of a good catch dog. So many people breed a dog because it will catch to another dog that will catch and now there’s 8 or 10 dogs in the world that will catch instead of 2. There were no standards set that the dog had to meet before being bred other than it will catch. The only goal for the litter is for them to catch. None of the other criteria that is required to be quality are present. Now I’m not saying all young or new hunters are this way and I’m not saying rough dog hunters don’t have quality catch dogs. I know several young or newer hunters that will ask for and take any help they can get. I also know of some rough dog hunters that have exceptional catch dogs, Judge Peel comes to mind right off along with some others. These are just things I have seen over the years. So many things that people tolerate, some correctable and some not, that I refuse to. Fighting, refusal to mind, leash chewing/ air climbing/ backflips/ limb grabbing/ screaming, crying, barking post catch/ regrouping, ear chewing are all things that I can’t and won’t do. I’ll try to fix the things that can be but if it takes begging then I don’t have that in me.


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I think me and you could hunt together man...LOL...

that is why to this day,,, If I got some buddies that want to hunt with me (some not all)  ,,, its sad to say but I drop them off on this side of the lease or property we on,, and Me and my son go our way to another part with our dogs...    Good guys ,,, but don't think things thru when it comes to calling a hog dog and hog dog...   

[t-dog]

Lol I know how you feel there


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[Goose87]

Goose, one of the reasons I feel that is behind the rednose catchdogs is size. There were a lot of the bigger dogs in the breed come down from those rednose dogs. A lot of the rednose breeders went to the UKC also and that tuned them down some.

I agree, just an example is the macho buck and mayday bred dogs, them dogs have some size to them, while I’m not an advocate for him but I respect his market campaign for his dogs but the dogs Chico Lopez is breeding and selling are prime examples of just a bigger size....

[WayOutWest]

Goose, I actually judged ol Buck in a showring back in 06 I think it was the weekend I met T dog. It was in Liberty when they were having shows there. I judged for the ADBA for over 20 years.

[t-dog]

06, that’s when his world went to $$$t lol.


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[TheRednose]

Goose, one of the reasons I feel that is behind the rednose catchdogs is size. There were a lot of the bigger dogs in the breed come down from those rednose dogs. A lot of the rednose breeders went to the UKC also and that tuned them down some.

I agree, just an example is the macho buck and mayday bred dogs, them dogs have some size to them, while I’m not an advocate for him but I respect his market campaign for his dogs but the dogs Chico Lopez is breeding and selling are prime examples of just a bigger size....

I agree WOW, some of the main foundation dogs of the OFRN strain were big dogs like Fergusons Centipede. I've had a few over the years and one of the smartest dogs I ever owned was a Red Devil/Corvino bitch who was fine around other dogs as long as they behaved. She was around 56 lb lean.

I think you are right Goose of all of the traditional APBT strains the OFRN seem to do really well as catchdogs, the other one that I have noticed produced some nice catch dogs was GR CH Virgil. Seems like he produced some really smart dogs as he was himself, but he also threw some real man eaters as he could be himself with people he didn't know. Prob why some have done real well with protection work as well.

On a side note Goose, I had a yard full of Mayday, Buck, and Mayday/Buck crosses and let me tell you of all of the gamedog lines I've been around I would recommend them the LEAST for catchdog work, well at least the ones I had. They were big and athletic and very smart but they were fastlane dogs that were 100% on by 3-5 months old lol and there was no turning their switch off. Ours were known for how hot they were and were absolute screamers. I will say I really like the mix Cracker has where it is bred down some, I think that will be a nice mix.