Good cross?

[lettmroll]

I've got a question for everyone else, I want to see if it's just me the way I think and look at things or if most of y'all see it the same, my should've made it a poll idk. Anyway I'm not just talking about myself I'm talking about others that I've seen as well. I've always been told when you find a good cross stay with it and I agree, but this is what I see. The first time you make that cross you get the best of the best out of it, then the 2nd and 3rd time you make that same cross, even though they make dang good or way above average cross they are not as good as that first cross. I'm talking all the way around even to percentage of pups that make the cut and were you had 5 or 6 best of the best then only get 2 or 3 like that. I've heard it could have something to do with the male if he's getting older idk, figured I would hear from y'all what y'all have seen.

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[t-dog]

IMO, there are a ton of variables in every breeding. Every breeding is sort of a crap shoot. We do what we can to improve the odds of getting the desired characteristics but it’s never a guarantee. I have seen it in every species that I’ve dealt with that you can breed a pair and get great results and turn around and mate the same pair again and not get nearly the same. Race horses are probably one of the best examples. Naturally they tried to reproduce the greats by making the same breeding again yet they didn’t produce another great. Certain males and females may produce super and if you breed the studs full brother to the gyps full sister, while the ped reads the same on paper, the results might be polar opposites. I had littermate brothers that were just like alike except for the color wrapper they were in. One produced real nice dogs the other produced pups that were so far out of the norm for the family that I discarded anything that carried that specific dog. I personally believe age, time of year(temps), different things the dogs have gone through, like hormone imbalances in gyps or maybe being severely injured and age can all influence breeding outcomes. Dogs aren’t any different than people in the sense that their body chemistry changes periodically. That has to have a bearing on it too. I rarely make the same cross twice. One I can only keep so many dogs so in order to not get in a corner breeding wise I have to keep dogs that aren’t all the same thing. So if I can keep 6 dogs and 4 of them are full brother/sister and the other two are their parents then I could get in a jam as far as future breeding.  That being said, I am contemplating a repeat breeding because I lost the first litter out of this cross with the exception of two. One of those two was pretty sick but he made it on his own so I
let him make it. He’s still an average dog but his brother in my opinion has the potential to be a star. I wanted a female out of that so I might try it again and see what happens. Another option though is breeding the same female to a littermate brother of the first stud. They seem to produce very similar pups and if the young male out of the first cross turns out like I think and a female out of the second turns out, I might try the half brother/sister, first cousin cross. Or have a male that has the same momma as my gyp and the same daddy as the young male I like so much. I might make that half brother/sister breeding and take a gyp out of that back to the young male I like. All three attractive thoughts to me but the second two are most likely. The original cross is an option just because I have seen what that can produce. Hope this is what you were asking about.

[hillbilly]

I just done it. First litter every dog will find a hog. She just had 6 pups a few weeks ago so we will see by this time next year if we get the same results as first cross.

[t-dog]

I hope people comment on this thread. I think it’s an interesting topic and there is lots of experience on here.

One of the things I put emphasis on in my breeding program is the ability of the female to reproduce. I have been fortunate in having some females that produced no matter what they were bred to. For instance the male dog I said bred that I didn’t like his pups. I bred him to my old yonder female and those pups made low end average dogs to me and they didn’t turn on for a full year later than my family’s of dogs normally do. That was the worst litter she ever had. The other litters out of that same male were way worse which to me is a testament to Yonder. I feel like if you are fortunate enough to have a line of gyps that produce like that, you have to try and keep that there. It’s one more wrinkle to try and maintain but it dang sure helps improve the odds in my opinion.


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[Semmes]

I am interested in this topic as well and look forward to others contributions…

I have limited experience in this and my endeavor is young.

These are not find digs I breed but catch dogs so the variables are more limited to the duties and more specific to one task.

I started with a very good dog (female), and crossed her within her breed and even bloodlines. Got good dogs but lacked some things and crossed her to another breed and got some things and lost some things.

Had an accidental breeding with a different breed and got some things and lost some things.
 
I breed very little and like Tdog have to use what I have to carry on.

One thing I think I have that has passed down through the generations frim the original female, and the reason I started doing this breeding thing is the temperament she had had carried on, which I always thought would going by her and her ancestors and family which I got a chance to see in person.

But for me, in the crosses, the physical characteristics have been harder to nail down.

I lost some size and for some reason my males seem to go one way and are bigger and slower maturing and females smaller and faster maturing. Kinda a sexually dimorphic thing going on…

The ‘bites’, and the builds on the dogs tend to vary widely. This has been not been nailed down. Don’t know if it ever will. But the temperament is there.

Kinda frustrating, and though I don’t have a huge amount of dogs out of this family around I am trying to move on without getting into to much of the corner of a dead end.
 
Inbreeding depression is a thing and a hurdle when breeding like I do.

With that you loose size, not to mention that I lost that from the original crosses of the breeds.

But I’m still happy so far with temperament, will and drive to do the job intended. Just been hard nailing down the better ‘tools’ I  envisioned them having when I started. The major things have improved but there were loses in other departments

[Semmes]

I have been getting significantly smaller litters the more I drill down on the original female which had huge litters.

Seems the better females out of the crosses have smaller liters down the line. And I’m not too far down so far.

But that may be some depression as wel I guess?

[Cajun]

  Back when I used to coon hunt a lot, I had this Nite ch. plott female named Maggie. I bred her to a Gr. Nite ch. male and every pup made coondogs. Two made nite champions and both were run over on the highway within a month of making nite champions. The others went to coon hunters who just pleasure hunted but they were tickled pink with their dogs. I made the same cross thinking this is a sure shot and only one dog turned out. I could not figgure it out.
  Still I believer that is your best shot on getting good dogs. There are so many varibles tho that nothing is gaurenteed. Like T dog mentioned there are dogs out there male and female that are prepotent on stamping their traits on their offspring. I have a female and I think I could breed her to a poodle and come up with hogdogs.
  Overall tho your best bet is to breed the best you can find or have to a equally good mate with similar traits and hope for the best. Also if a dog is weak in one area make sure the dog you are breeding to is strong in that department. For example I have a plott female that is what I call medium to cold nose. She finds a lot of hogs for us but when I am going to breed her it will be to a really cold nose male.
   The most important thing I believe is you have to hunt them. The best dog in the litter is normally the one that gets hunted the most.

[lettmroll]

Cajun we have never met but I have sold a few dogs for you. Some of my buddies in different areas was looking for plots and I sent them to you and they all bought a pup or two. Under normal circumstances I would say the dog that's going to turn out the best is the one you hunt the most. But these dogs are a little different you would have to be around them to see what I mean, now one may be ahead of the others because of more hunting but you can take one hunting 2 times and it will just blow the other out of the water, they have a lot of since and a lot of hog since I call it. Tanner Sheffield bought a plot from you that is some kind of fast and I like fat in dogs. If I could get a plot like that and was silent I would breed into my dogs just to see what happened.

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[lettmroll]

T dog,
I know this is really just scratching a little in what you talked about but I like a uncle niece cross, or Aunt, nephew cross best myself then take those puppies and go back with a great uncle/grandpa cross over the female out of the other litter. Then I can need back to a 3rd cousin is I want to or go with a outcross. I know 4 dogs that I would like to out cross to and hopefully I'll get to do it after this hunting season.

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[cajunl]

I dont breed a lot and usually only breed when I need new young dogs coming up. So I almost never do a second breeding. I usually am looking forward and not really looking for quantity. 

That said I think everyone is spot on about the dogs getting hunting. How many guys are going to struggle through times of hunting puppies solo, coming home empty handed, and really put the time, effort and boat leather to make a top notch dog. Really the breeder and a close knit group around them will put in the effort. We have all seen it. A nice promising dog is passed around to 4-5 homes before it its 2 years old. That dog has no chance compared to a dog in the same stable kennel hunted several days a week at the same age.

Genetics is a big big factor. Time and resources are so limited I believe there are more hog dogs born than ever get made.

My $.02 cents that aint worth more than a pile of dog crap! 

[t-dog]

Cajun, the only designer dog names I could come up with for your new wave plott/poodles are poots and plodles. It’ll be interesting to see those,lol.

For sure y’all are right about the dogs getting hunted. I try very hard to place my pups and the two main things I look for in a hunter to place one with are how much they hunt and the quality care they give their dogs. If you really hunt a dog with good genetics for the task at hand, you stand a high percentage chance of getting a good dog. I have becaome a believer in dogs that are purpose bred.  I’m not suggesting that dogs let’s say are bred for bear won’t make hog dogs or vise versa. Some lines like Cajun’s are bred for more than one task. Many stock dogs are bred for dual purpose but I have seen it too many times I bet Cajun will say the same, maybe not but I’d bet on it, that some of those dogs are be better at one discipline than others. You might have littermates that both are good dogs on cattle and hogs or bear and hogs, but it’s not uncommon at all for one to be better at and prefer one discipline over the other. One dog might be a good cow dog but if they cross a hog track or wind hogs while working cows, they will leave the cattle to go to the hogs. So if I was gonna breed to one of those littermates to get hog dogs, it’s a no brainer to me on which one to breed to.

How much line breeding a particular family can stand is different for each family. You can get so many indicators if you pay attention. Yes you stack the good genetics but the bad can be amplified as well. You can lose size, or nose, quality of feet, disposition, brains, litter size like Semmes said. I like most of the line breeding options but I haven’t had good luck with mother/son. I know several that have it just hasn’t been a good tool for me. I’m going to try some half brother sister breedings just to concentrate on a particular gyp.


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[Cajun]

Cajun we have never met but I have sold a few dogs for you. Some of my buddies in different areas was looking for plots and I sent them to you and they all bought a pup or two. Under normal circumstances I would say the dog that's going to turn out the best is the one you hunt the most. But these dogs are a little different you would have to be around them to see what I mean, now one may be ahead of the others because of more hunting but you can take one hunting 2 times and it will just blow the other out of the water, they have a lot of since and a lot of hog since I call it. Tanner Sheffield bought a plot from you that is some kind of fast and I like fat in dogs. If I could get a plot like that and was silent I would breed into my dogs just to see what happened.

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Thank you  Lettmroll.

[Birdslayer86]

Buddy of mine owns world champion goose. Strictly a bay pen dog. He is now a 5X and will be trying for 6 starting in about a month. When he realized what he truly had he made the same cross again and again and again and again  trying to get more. He’s produced some great dogs and I don’t know his percentages and what not but there’s still only 1 goose. I know when we had running hounds we liked to use uncles aunts and cousins to keep a line going. Tons of ways to go about it and the closer the cross is a good way to see the bad faults just as much as the good. Some lines can take an extreme amount of close breeding and some simply just can not. In game chickens it’s pretty common to breed an old cock to a young pullet or a young stag to an old hen. They seem to not produce as well the more they age and using something old with something young seems to help. Tons of different animals peds to study to see how the rest of the world tries to reproduce something .. hounds .. bird dogs .. game dogs .. race horses .. game chickens the one thing most all of them have in common is they are judged on performance and the ones that are more successful are completely performance based

[Reuben]

Excellent post Birdslayer86…

The problem I perceive happening in breeding better hunting dogs are several…

Some folks have different standards as to what a good to great hunting dog is and breed accordingly…and that is why there are so much inconsistencies when breeding hunting dogs…

Someone buys a pup with a few grand champions in the pedigree and pay lots of money for the pup…the pup doesn't make a dog worthy of breeding but gets bred anyway to recover some of their losses…

It's not easy finding a top-hunting bloodline that hunts as we like or with the consistency that we like…

And it is getting harder to find big enough places to hunt and train…this in itself is a challenge in proving dog performance for many hog doggers...

[Birdslayer86]

I honestly quit woods hunting years back and pretty much got out of dogs but of course when something is a true passion you’ll find your way back. I’m playing with these pen dogs at the moment as it works better for the kids and I enjoy the company of the bay pen folks. The biggest problem I see with a lot of different animals is no one proves their brood stock out and culls accordingly. I understand the cost .. time and energy that went into it but a cull is a cull and your goal is to produce a working animal and or improve your stock. We as humans are to willing to make excuses as to why we should keep them and overlook the faults we aren’t happy with. We don’t have to rely on them to eat or work or make a paycheck like they did when most were created. The other big problem I see is geographic differences. Just because someone breeds a great line of dogs and has maintained them for several years doesn’t mean you’re going to get a pup and take it to a different geographic and make a dog. They work so well for that breeder because they perfected them for where they hunt and how they hunt. If you are in the market for a pup I would look for a person or breeder that hunts the same geographic you do and pretty close to the same way you do. Just because they didn’t make a dog for you doesn’t give you the right to bash a breeder because there is so many variables that go into making a dog and as you pointed out the lack of hunting land and access to land will eventually be the death of more then one breed or line of dogs and to be honest that’s the exact reason I stepped away. Truthfully for me to woods hunt like I believe a dog should be I’d have to make trips out of state to have the access you would need. It just doesn’t exist where I live in Florida or access is not available unless you were born into the family.

[make-em-squeel]

Everything we breed is tightly bred and when gets to tight we outcross to another line/tight bred dog but from different stock, no experience breeding good dog to good dog but scatter bred personally (didnt see it work well/consistently for my friends).

So with the lines we keep tight I have not noticed that, I've had awesome dogs off old retired gyps

[The Old Man]

 From what I have been able to tell this seems to be more apt to happen in unrelated or mildly linebred matings due to the genetic variability, as closely line bred matings go the consistency and repeatability should increase.
Then as mentioned above you sometimes get a prepotent reproducing male or female, or the opposite can be true as one that should have been at least an average reproducer but for whatever reason just does not reproduce quality pups.

[The Old Man]

The longest running "closed program" that I know of was Charles Gantte, who raised Plott Dogs. He got dogs in the 1950'S, they were of 5 crosses some of which were related. In the late 50's or early 60's he started breeding them and never bought or bred to an outside dog after that. There are some names on old pedigrees that aren't "Gantte" but they are directly out of dogs that he produced. About 15 or so years ago he developed health issues, and was unable to hunt any longer, but he and a few friends still produced a few, and honestly I believe the quality went down when he was no longer able to personally witness the dogs performance, but relied on word of mouth to ascess the dogs.  Although not many are left in this world there are some young dogs still in this world that have a pure Gantte pedigree. That means that his closed program lasted at least 60 some years, and in excess of 10 generations. He , both formally, and on his own studied genetics and dog breeding. Those dogs withstanding that much linebreeding for that period of time shows that Charles had an uncanny ability for selecting individuals to breed.