Genetic calculators

[williamsld]

How many of y’all use them? I know I use them all the time since they were introduced to me by an extremely knowledgeable dog man
I’ll just be sitting on the couch thinking about different crosses between the best dogs available
Like at the moment my gyp that is a half sister niece to my old crank dog and is retired to a brood gyp is in heat and I’ve narrowed it down to the best 2 dogs in this blood line to breed based off all the desired characteristics I want and need in a hog dog then I put them in the calculator and see what it looks like on paper basically see which dogs it is SUPPOSED to pull towards in the lineage that they have in common ( we all know not all pups get passed the same dominate and recessive genes)

Now granted I’m going to cross to the other dog this time next year because they’re both good dogs but one on paper pulls more towards the dogs I’d want to recreate

was just generally curious everyone’s thoughts on the subject  I don’t think it’s been talked about in a good long while


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[t-dog]

I honestly don’t use it. Mainly because there are variables in the equation that can’t be calculated. I remember Randy Wright always showing me litters and telling this litter is such and such % Ben and this one is such and such % Rodeo. I get why it should be a certain way or adds up a certain way, but the prepotency of a dog that may only be in the pedigree a minimal amount can’t be accounted for. So the math may show that a dog is 75%+ to a particular dog but that dog may actually be more like a completely different dog in the pedigree. Don’t get me wrong, I know you have to try and breed on the higher percentages to increase the odds because you’re not likely to get something that’s more like a particular dog by breeding away from it. I also realize that it’s a lot more useful tool in a family of dogs that are really line bred and consistent in type and style. This is another reason for me not using it. My little family of dogs are the result of cross breeding. They’ve been a work in progress as far trying to establish consistency in type and style. They are getting more consistent all the time but I also have a little different breeding strategy. I try to breed to similar and excessive at the same time. In other words if my female is fast on track and smart and all the other things I look for but lacks bite then I’m going to breed her to a male that has all the same traits except has too much bite. This is the strategy that has worked best for me. There are factors in there that can influence that outcome and I pay attention to them but on average this is my strategy.


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[williamsld]

I honestly don’t use it. Mainly because there are variables in the equation that can’t be calculated. I remember Randy Wright always showing me litters and telling this litter is such and such % Ben and this one is such and such % Rodeo. I get why it should be a certain way or adds up a certain way, but the prepotency of a dog that may only be in the pedigree a minimal amount can’t be accounted for. So the math may show that a dog is 75%+ to a particular dog but that dog may actually be more like a completely different dog in the pedigree. Don’t get me wrong, I know you have to try and breed on the higher percentages to increase the odds because you’re not likely to get something that’s more like a particular dog by breeding away from it. I also realize that it’s a lot more useful tool in a family of dogs that are really line bred and consistent in type and style. This is another reason for me not using it. My little family of dogs are the result of cross breeding. They’ve been a work in progress as far trying to establish consistency in type and style. They are getting more consistent all the time but I also have a little different breeding strategy. I try to breed to similar and excessive at the same time. In other words if my female is fast on track and smart and all the other things I look for but lacks bite then I’m going to breed her to a male that has all the same traits except has too much bite. This is the strategy that has worked best for me. There are factors in there that can influence that outcome and I pay attention to them but on average this is my strategy.


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You make some valid points that I honestly didn’t think about, see for me it’s very handy because I came into a already well established line that had been culled hard and built prior to me getting into it 15+ years ago so I know what traits dogs 5+ generations had too

The Randy thing is why I added I studied the dogs in the woods first prior to even putting them in the calculators I think a lot of times people get too focused on the % and leave the dogs themselves out of it…

I’m like you I like to breed to one that is the same caliber same desired traits but one with a little more bite to one that’s a little too loose and try to ride that happy medium which is kind of where typing it all out helps me because I can see it in front of me and say yeah dog x is behind both of these and he had plenty of bite or both dogs are heavy down from dog z and he was really lacking in bite

That being said I’ve seen and owned dogs that were the best in the litter and they didn’t produce and then breed to the less stellar but still solid littermate and they pass on everything you want and more and produce better than they themselves are in which case the calculators are useless on that


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[williamsld]

And I’m definitely not saying it’s fool proof it can look absolutely perfect on paper and you end up knocking them all in the head and going back to the drawing board

But also if I got in a bind and needed to make a cross to preserve the absolute most of the blood as possible so it didn’t end or be too watered down I’d plug them all in and try whatever gave me the best numbers based on the best dogs available


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[t-dog]

I agree with you there. Genetics are a funny thing. Dogs have those genes present that don’t necessarily show until you breed to another dog that was also hiding the same gene. I had two pairs of brothers once that I bred to. One pair was were out of my find/bay dogs. The two were peas in a pod when I started them as pups as were their two sisters. If you had closed your eyes you wouldn’t hardly have been able to say which one was baying. They all had the same style. And they were all built the same. The wrapper was the only difference in them visually. My buddy kept a pair and I kept a pair. My female was accidentally bred once and the pup was an absolute outstanding cow dog. She was used daily on cattle that had to be hunted up. She would wear out a couple of sets of good dogs daily. My male produced very well, very high percentage litters in working abilities and style. This male was a really nice dog in his own right. If I had a kennel full of him today I’d feel very fortunate. We bred his brother and every litter was the same, 3 or 4 litters I think. They were true to the family in type but that was where it stopped. These dogs typically start themselves at a very young age. This second males pups didn’t start until they were right at a year old and were 2 before they were a factor in the woods. The first males pups we’re contributing after just a few hunts. Some of the people that got the second dogs pups loved them, different strokes for different folks I guess. I didn’t keep anything off of male #2. The second example was two bull dogs out of my old family of catch dogs. Both were outstanding dogs but built slightly different. You knew they were brother by looking but one was slightly thicker, carried a little more body than the other and a a little larger head but again, the same shape. One was 90-93 pounds depending on the time of year. The other was 95-100 depending on the time of year. When we bred them, the heavier brother produced pups that were more similar to his brother in type and his brother produced pups more like him in type. It’s hard to account for what you can’t see. Again, all 4 were originally crosses that were being line bred to establish a very consistent family. You were lucky to find dogs that were established and fit you. That’s a real head start.


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[williamsld]

I agree with you there. Genetics are a funny thing. Dogs have those genes present that don’t necessarily show until you breed to another dog that was also hiding the same gene. I had two pairs of brothers once that I bred to. One pair was were out of my find/bay dogs. The two were peas in a pod when I started them as pups as were their two sisters. If you had closed your eyes you wouldn’t hardly have been able to say which one was baying. They all had the same style. And they were all built the same. The wrapper was the only difference in them visually. My buddy kept a pair and I kept a pair. My female was accidentally bred once and the pup was an absolute outstanding cow dog. She was used daily on cattle that had to be hunted up. She would wear out a couple of sets of good dogs daily. My male produced very well, very high percentage litters in working abilities and style. This male was a really nice dog in his own right. If I had a kennel full of him today I’d feel very fortunate. We bred his brother and every litter was the same, 3 or 4 litters I think. They were true to the family in type but that was where it stopped. These dogs typically start themselves at a very young age. This second males pups didn’t start until they were right at a year old and were 2 before they were a factor in the woods. The first males pups we’re contributing after just a few hunts. Some of the people that got the second dogs pups loved them, different strokes for different folks I guess. I didn’t keep anything off of male #2. The second example was two bull dogs out of my old family of catch dogs. Both were outstanding dogs but built slightly different. You knew they were brother by looking but one was slightly thicker, carried a little more body than the other and a a little larger head but again, the same shape. One was 90-93 pounds depending on the time of year. The other was 95-100 depending on the time of year. When we bred them, the heavier brother produced pups that were more similar to his brother in type and his brother produced pups more like him in type. It’s hard to account for what you can’t see. Again, all 4 were originally crosses that were being line bred to establish a very consistent family. You were lucky to find dogs that were established and fit you. That’s a real head start.


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Yessir genetics are finicky I’ll never truly understand them lol

I just lucked into them really because we’re from the same town


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[t-dog]

Better lucky than good lol.


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[TexasHogDogs]

I owned and bred Bulldogs for many years and know a lot of the greatest breeders of their time. A lot and lots of great and fine people.  Threw my years I produced many, many of great dogs.  Gr Ch Brueax, Gr Ch Hannah, Ch Katrina, Ch Bandit, Halls Ch Sugar and many more.  I owned N. Toby bought him from Clemmons owned Ch Sister who was given to me by a great great friend after Ch Sister won over Irish Jerry with Irish Jerry saying afterward Ch Sister was the best he had ever seen. I got friends that were at the Jimmy Boots vs Benny Bob outing. Know the man personally that bred Bullyson, Eli Jr and Brendy lived right down the road from him and know many many people that owned dogs off of these great old dogs.  Some mighty famous dog men and breeders.  I know longer own a bulldogs no more those years are gone.  I dabbled in the hog dogs for a pretty good many years and had what I consider as good as any of course thats my side of the story.  But I can tell you this about breeding.  It is very very easy to get caught up into all of the inbreeding, heavy heavy line breeding and just the whole got to have the tightest family of this are that thing.  I know I done it myself! Now as the years have past me and bunch of my old bulldog buddys got together and were talking about the mistakes we made and the things we done wrong and yes the things we done right.  When we looked back on the very best performace dogs that we produced threw all those years.  The very best dogs most all were big time crosses are back crosses.  They were not tight tighly bred dogs they were a true blend so do speak and only the best of their kinds got bred. We found that most of the greatest performace dogs where when the best to the best dogs where bred togther and the hell with the pedigree. It is best to let the dog make the pedigree and not the pedigree make the dog.  Sometimes we can get so caught up in what we want as humans that we try to over rule mother nature and that is a mistake.  Yeah I said that.  Any breeder worth his salt has done this and if he dont admit to it then he has not bred as many great dogs as he might think he has.  This all comes from first hand experince hands on the job and not only mine but many, many great dog men of performace dogs.  Sure there are some crosses that work and work well when you hit this cross breed the hell out of it your chances of letting mother nature make you a great dog is better than you trying to make it yourself.  When it comes to inbreeding and heavy heave linebreeding you damn well better know when to stop, when to cross because if you do not.  You can number 2 can a a whole line of dogs in a hurry.  Anyway this is just some of my experince and a lot of great dog mens experinces in the breeding game.  Dont worry about a caculater worry about what your own eyes are telling you and the dog in front of you.  Its took many years and many mistakes and tons of heartaches not to mention money time blood sweat,tears, divorces and retirement to finally put all the peices together of what I did right and wrong as well as all my old buddys. Have a good day. 

[t-dog]

Jimmy I agree with some of that and some of it not so much. There are countless mindsets on breeding and probably every one of them has been tried countless times and had success and failure. Breeding good to good can absolutely produce some barn stormers. But here’s the the thing, very few of those crosses were accidental. Most all of them were made with a purpose. The breeding pair used MOST of the time, were dogs that came from line bred families. When they crossed a really good dog from a line bred family back to a really good dog from another line bred family, they created a hybrid vigor. Those hybrid vigors like that are often hard to beat in any discipline. Another factor is that depending on the what the animal is being used for as to how many traits a breeder is having to try and carry on. The greyhound for instance, they are bred for very few characteristics. Our hog dogs have to possess multiple characteristics to be able to get the job done. The more characteristics you have to try and preserve the more you have to try and concentrate the gene pool which means breeding dogs with as many of those traits as possible to another that possesses as many as possible. More times than not, line bred, purpose bred dogs are the ones that carry those traits. Look at Mother Nature. Wolf packs are line bred as all get out. Generation upon generation being bred back to each other. If an inferior mating happens, then those pups don’t make it. That’s survival of the fittest and it’s definitely line breeding. This is why they all look alike, move alike, hunt alike, etc. There is no fail proof method. Cloning isn’t even fail proof. If it was we would be watching Secretariat race Secretariat and more women would have husbands that look like me. Just kidding, maybe the Secretariat example was a little much. It was no different in the game chickens. You would see very successful chicken men that would win a lot. If you asked how the birds they were using were bred, you were likely going to here that they were a cross between two or more families. If you went to their yards, they would have brood pens mated up and they would tell you these are my pure such and such, this pen is pure this, that pen is pure something else, these pens over here are my battle crosses. The hybrid vigor created something better than either family used to creat it. Sometimes those crosses would be so outstanding that they would try and establish a new family out of those crosses. The only way they could establish a new family and capitalize on what made that cross better was to line breed them. That’s my thought process on it anyway.


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[TexasHogDogs]

Nothing wrong with great linebred heavy families of dogs there has been many great linebred families of dogs in just about every breed.  The key to a families of dogs is like Burt said the test of time.  But then the there is a master key to all of it.  That Master key is the indivual dogs being bred threw out those years.  Ive seen whole families of dogs completely ruined by breeders who are partial to percentages of this dog are that dog and going ahead and breeding that super great bred inferior dog instead of breeding to a truly great dog that did not have as much percentages of a certian family are dog as the owner are breedier decided they had to have.  Anytime you breed a heavy heavy heavy family dog his gene pool is very potent beacuse of being so heavy family bred.  Alot of times what happens is you will breed this super super potent heavy heavy family dog to a straight cross and think man its gonna be great these pups are going to be 50% Eli Jr because of the sire being super heavy straight bred Eli blood and the other half on the dam side is a straight cross of lets Bolio/Redboy blood.  So you got your liter they grow up and the best you get out of it is a bunch of so so type of dogs good buy not great and defienely not as good as the sire are dam.  The breeder cannot figure out what the hell has happened he scratches his head and his ass till they are raw and just cannot figure out why this proven cross has not worked.  So what happened?  Well in my experince it is this.   You took a super super heavy heavy heavy bred Eli Jr dog that is carrying that blood super potent and you cross straight out to a Bolio/Redboy bred dog and the pups are suppose to be 50% Eli/25%Bolio/25%Redboy but what happens is this.  The blood that, that super super tight pure bred Eli jr dogs blood is so pre-potent that it is completly over riding the cross blood.  In other words the Bolio-Reboy bitches blood is not even breaking down the pre-potent Eli Jr dogs blood so really that liter of pups is still just a straight bred Eli dog lol.  LOL You think am kidding we have seen it.  So now.  If the breeder is not experinced enuff to know this .  What does he do?  He number 2 cans the whole liter .  A wasted breeding lol in his eyes but to a man that know this is how things really work in real life and no school books are going to teach  you this.  The only thing that is going to teach you this is doing it.  So the experince breeder takes this liter and culls it down to the very best offspring of that liter and what does he do?  He now recrosses this dog and goes back over the top of them with the same type of Bolio/Redboy cross.  Now guess what?  This liter comes out and now the cross has worked because now the double potent Eli Jr blood has been cut twice with the same cross as the first time and now the Bolio/Redboy has cut that pre-potent Eli Jr blood to a true 50% Eli Jr - 25% Bolio -25% Redboy true cross and the dogs in the liter are complete absolute Beast !  This is just one example of how gentics really work in the real world and not in no school boys gentic class.  This is another example of real life breeding and not what some Calculator is telling you.  It tooks years and years of doing this hands on seeing with our own eyes what was really happening.  There was more than a few of us.  I had 75 dogs, another buddy very well known had over 80 and a lots more with anywere from 20 to 40 dogs on every yard.  It was a Passion of life we lived and breath these dogs.   Anyway everybody has their ways of doing things and its all a part of the game.  Everybody is looking for that once in a life time dog.  This thing is long here but man you cannot explain these types of things in just a few sentences. 

[TexasHogDogs]

I do not want people to get the wrong impression here.  I am not saying our way are my way are anybodys way is the only way to breed dogs , no that is not at all what I am saying here.  I am just relaying how we done it back in the day.    Am just relaying to you all what we seen with our own eyes and not what some Collage Grads Gentic Experts book is telling you.  Everybody has their ways and no one way is the only way.  We went threw a lots of hard times doing and learning all of this and trying to understand what was really going on and not what some suspose to be expert gentic guy was teaching.  I just want people to believe what their own eyes are telling them because most the time its going to be right.  Yall have fun breeding them dogs.  We did!

[t-dog]

I get it. I didn’t take it as you thought there was only one way. Even if you had, I realize you grew up on Cameron water.


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[TexasHogDogs]

HAHAAHAHAHAHAH   Damn man hahahahaahahhahha.  Thomas has some of the best dogs that I  hunted with and he has bred those dogs many a years and knows them inside out because thats what it takes years and years.   I totally understand about breeding to the traits that a breeder wants in a dog.  Nobody is really the same when it comes to the ideal type of dog.   Thomas at the time we hunted together like his a little more loose baying and I liked a dog that was a little on the ruffer type side with good sense to know when enuff was enuff.  At times my dogs were to ruff and got to in your face and paid some big prices.  But either way he caught his share over there in Meow Kitten Country and  we caught our share over here in North Yoemen country lol.    If I was to start up again Thomas would be in my crosshairs for a dog thats for sure. My lower back is what put the brakes on me.  My dogs got old some got killed and I just stopped breeding them.

[TexasHogDogs]

Hey one other thing.  I seen a pic of you here the other day and damn boy.  You got more grey hair on ya than that ole Grey Goose from Washington State.  LOL

[t-dog]

That great hair is like scratches on a truck, it’s character! I earned those grey hair. I was giving Ole Connor hell the other day at the barber shop about all his grey. That boy is 24 and as grey as I am.

What you say about our styles is accurate. As hogs have evolved, my program has had too as well. I’ve always had and bred towards most of the things I breed for now. The difference now is the bite that my dogs have. Increasing the bite has also elevated the level of some of the other traits I feel. I’m curious about this with other breeding programs.

Has anyone else’s breeding program changed or evolved since you started? How did you go about it. I don’t want to change this discussion into something other than it’s original intent but I think this does relate pretty close.


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[williamsld]

That great hair is like scratches on a truck, it’s character! I earned those grey hair. I was giving Ole Connor hell the other day at the barber shop about all his grey. That boy is 24 and as grey as I am.

What you say about our styles is accurate. As hogs have evolved, my program has had too as well. I’ve always had and bred towards most of the things I breed for now. The difference now is the bite that my dogs have. Increasing the bite has also elevated the level of some of the other traits I feel. I’m curious about this with other breeding programs.

Has anyone else’s breeding program changed or evolved since you started? How did you go about it. I don’t want to change this discussion into something other than it’s original intent but I think this does relate pretty close.


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I’m here for it I definitely agree it’s related to the topic if anyone wants to add to it


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