What are your dogs missing?

[t-dog]

So since there isn’t much hunting going on for most of because of deer season, I thought I’d pick y’all’s brains. Most of y’all know that I have a family of dogs I’ve been raising for a pretty good while. I haven’t been in a huge hurry with them as far as getting tight bred, at least not as big as a lot of people. I don’t keep a lot of dogs but have a circle of friends that hunt the same dogs. We all work well together in trying to produce the same thing. We all hunt the same style and like the same kind of dog. This helps keep the family going without one poor fella having to keep more dogs than he can hunt to keep pushing forward.

With deer season in, I have had time to really sit back and think about the future of the dogs. I think about where I started vs where we are now. I think about the evolution of everything, from the hogs to the properties shrinking etc. I feel like I have to adapt with my breeding objectives as well.

At this stage of the game, I have decided that I need to start breeding for a little more bite. I personally believe that a hog that truly wants to run is going to do just that no matter what style of dog is baying it. The only way to prevent that is to all out catch it.  I don’t want that much bite. That changes the whole hunt, IMO. My Outlaw dog has 
the right amount of bite for me. He’s going to bay in the thick stuff and if a hog tries to leave he is doing all he can to catch up and turn it. He never pinches, he always grabs a mouthful to stop one. I’ve seen him in the position where he could get up beside them and hit the ear or the jowl and sit back on it long enough to turn it, then get back and wait on the catch dog. He’s really good about sizing up hogs and he knows when and how much pressure to put. The 150 class hogs are usually going to get caught if they aren’t in thick cover or if they rush him in the thick. He had to learn those things which means he took some cutting early on. If he’s with another dog that thinks like he does of course they will catch a little bigger hog if it’s where they can get to it. Typical of most dogs I believe. My Ava gyp will bite one but needs more bite in my opinion. She isn’t as willing to bite one in the real thick stuff, she’s a little more cautious. She is really fast and I have seen her baying just inside a briar thicket and the hog broke hard deeper into the thicket. Her and her littermate brother both came out and sprinted around to the opposite side of the thicket (rolling briars probably 30-40 yards in diameter). As they were getting around there the hog popped out not 5 yards in front of them. They hammed him and turned him before he could get into the next thicket. That was good watching but the difference is that if Outlaw had been one of those two, if that hog decided to break again after they bayed him
In the open, Outlaw would’ve caught him where Ava and Sam would’ve just been trying to stop him. I don’t want them to ask a hog to stay. I want them forcing it to stay. It makes my heart happy to see a big ole gnarly boar standing in wide open spaces because they haven’t given him a choice.

Sexsquatch made an outcross with Outlaw’s brother to a plott female. The F1 cross is not quite what I want even though the litter seems to have turned out very good. It’s picky things and personal preferences that I don’t care as much for. I bred one of the F1 females back to one of our males and I really like the 1/4 better. If they have the bite they will be really nice because I believe everything else is there. I haven’t hunted them yet, they are 5-6 months old. But I like to play with my pups and they seem to have lots of drive, lots of brains, and be very persistent. Time will tell but that’s what I think my dogs need as a whole is more bite.
This is my pup that’s 1/4 plott.


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[WayOutWest]

Dang she is a purty thing. In the nearly 20 years I have been hunting with you I feel like you have really refined what you are breeding.

[Cajun]

  Boy now you've done it. Went and ruined all those years of breeding up a good line of hog dogs. Your trash problems have just multiplied introducing Plotts. lol Good thing you bred them down to a 1/4 cause a little Plott goes a long ways. haha  All kidding aside, best of luck with her. she is pretty.
  Some of my thoughts on stopping hogs. Out in the open is the easiest place for a dog to stop a hog. It is in the thick that the grittier dogs have problems for a number of reasons. If they get to gritty, the hog breaks and runs and there is not much they can do about it. The thick stuff is where I get most of my dogs busted up. They either have to be tough enough to grab him and hold him or just back up in bay. There is such a fine line between too much grit and not enough. Then there are the dogs that just have the touch. They are way more consistent in baying hogs. I am talking about dogs that are by there self. I have noticed in my Plotts, some of my less gritty dogs bay more hogs then my tougher ones. Sometimes they bite off more then they can handle and the hog breaks and runs.
  Now what do I lack in my Plotts. I dont know if we have enough time for all that so I will give you the short list. Everytime I get outrun I know I need more speed. Especially running with some of my buddies 1/2 cur x 1/2 July hounds . Also there are some curs out there that are exceptionally fast. But if my Plotts can hang in there a hour or so, they will take over the race. Nose, Sometimes We might find a track around noon or later and if they cant trail it, I would like more nose. Most people dont need that kind of nose because they have plenty of hogs but we track hunt a lot and I want trail dogs. If I didnt bearhunt I would have gone to a Plott cur cross or July x Cur cross a long time a go. They are the fastest thing in the woods jmo.
  The other side of the coin is everyone likes something different depending on their terrain and the hogs they have. I know one thing and it is hard to get evrerything in one dog.

[t-dog]

Cajun you are exactly right. It is extremely hard to get everything in one dog. Too much or too little is most definitely relevant to the situation. Outlaws daddy was too gritty. He wasn’t what I would call catchy in the sense of trying every hog, but he bayed pretty tight and he had no reverse. If they rushed him he just got ahold. It got him cut a lot because it was usually in real tight spaces that weren’t in his favor. Outlaw is a lot better about how much pressure and when, the stock sense thing in my opinion. I have seen hogs break bay when they saw us or heard the catch dog coming. Just like the hog dropping its head and busting through, Outlaw is doing the same trying to catch up. Me and Deputy Dawg saw him come out of if a briar thicket one day. He was coming so hard that was literally dividing out to grab her. We laughed because he was laid out with his mouth open and teeth popping trying to get ahold. She made it about 3-4 yards back into the briars. That’s the run to catch version I like.

I hear lots of people use the game dog breeding when they are talking about breeding too tight with line breeding and inbreeding. I know this is a different subject, I don’t think that’s comparing apples to
apples. The game dogs as a whole, are not bred for as many traits as the hog dogs and even bear dogs. I know in my dogs there are lots of boxes they have to check to get used. Again, it’s hard to get all the traits in one dog, but it’s my goal to get as many as possible in every dog I have.

I really think track speed stops a LOT of hogs. I also think a hog that really wants to leave is going to and that’s where track speed come in again. So that’s been one of my biggest focuses. But now I gotta be able to convince the indecisive ones to stay put once they get winded.

Cajun the male I bred the 1/2 plott to was heavier back to the lab/border collie side.


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[NLAhunter]

Tdog that's a good looking puppy my little family of dogs is not nearly refined in there breeding as what yalls are but I would like to add little endurance probably in mine as far as hunting day in and day out I work off so when I am home we hunt alot so I like for em to hold up good and I think if I get something to try add endurance I am probably going to pick up a little speed to like said there such a fine line with grit they need to know when to apply pressure and when to just get back and bay and I think stock sense in cur dogs play big part in that my dogs are looser baying type dogs that will tighten up on a hog trying to fight or run but I really don't want my cur dogs to catch out on a hog any size do what they need to do to stop him then get back and bay weather it's a pig or 500lb barr and for the most part that's about how mine are when we hunting alot I don't like a bunch of cut up dogs and can't hunt for a month I have had a pack of rougher type dogs  just  I didn't get along with em to well just personal preference my dogs are more cast type dogs they are not real track minded dogs probably little bit my fault some they not going stick there nose in old track and try work it out they may get in there some where find it hotter and take it but I have never really tried to make em take old tracks I have a little something I am raising at the house now that if she turns out and makes it will be crossed on my dogs that should help some with some of this only time will tell

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[t-dog]

Awe now see, there you go! You’re holding out on us. We’re all family here, no secrets.

I had the rough dogs at one time too. I was the same way. I didn’t like not being able to go when I wanted because everything was beat up. I want and expect every dog on my feed bill to be able to do it solo. We cast hunt 99.9% of the time. We may drop one to five dogs at a time depending on circumstances. We usually have a couple of older dogs, a couple of young well started dogs, and then a pup or two we are getting going. Like I say, just depends on circumstances as to what we drop. My dogs are all pretty natural about using the wind. When we cast, they may all leave in one direction, but unless they find hogs immediately, they are going to be fanned out. Outlaw and Ava are a little different in their styles. It’s funny because their color and markings are a representation of their style. She’s a brindle and he’s a blanket backed dog with white like a lot of the old Lipper dogs with the exception that he has some brindle on his cheeks and forelegs. If he smells it he is going to work it out. If she smells it and it’s cold, she is going to go hunt for something hotter and if she doesn’t find that she will come back and grub out the colder track. I like it because I feel like I’m getting a great chance of producing a hog faster. When the weather is hot, that matters. I don’t want rough but I want what I have in Outlaw. If that limits me to fewer dogs out at a time then I’m ok with that. Our country is really shrinking, so stopping power, speed and bite, are more important than ever I feel as well as discipline and being able to tone dogs in.
I tried a few running dog crosses. I just couldn’t get what I wanted consistently. One problem was boredom after the chase was done. They would leave and look for the next one before you could get there. Another problem was wanting to run so bad that they would be a mile out before they started hunting. And then there was the issue of over running their nose. Because of those last two issues, we bayed lots of hogs behind them that they overran. They were the dogs that taught me that foot speed and tracking speed didn’t mean the same thing. My old Clyde dog was half cat/treeing walker. He was average speed in a foot race, but he was a track driving fool. I had a running walker/bird dog cross at the same time I had Clyde. Now let me tell you, he was beyond high strung. His wheels were spinning in place before you could open the box. He didn’t quit moving like that until you put him back in it. The crazy part at the time to me was that if him an Clyde stared a hog at the same time, Clyde would be looking at it well before the running dog. His  foot speed and brain were to his detriment.


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[Judge peel]

Hogs


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[t-dog]

Lmbo


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[t-dog]

I mentioned the running dog crosses, if I’m not mistaken, Goose had running blood in his dogs and he was catching a lot of hogs with them. The south Texas guys have it in theirs too. I’m sure several, but that was my experience with them.


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[Cajun]

T dog like anything it has to be the right cross. Goose bred one of his cur dogs to a cat hunters running walker. These dogs have been bred for cold nose, cat savvy for over 30 years and probably longer then that. The main thing is having that nose. He also bred a July to my Jack dog.( Hillbilly's sire) He got nose and grit out of that cross. I have seen some exceptional dogs that were Plott x cur crosses. You had good luck with a treeing walker cross I believe.

[NLAhunter]

I am like cajun I think it would have to be the right kinda running hounds used in the cross I know some people having luck out of that cross I have never made it I have been looking that direction for couple of years and went and talked with and meet several running houndsmen just ain't got it done yet

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[t-dog]

What kind of running dogs were you considering NLA?

I know Jessie Paul in south Texas has done it successfully. Sass is always bragging on JP’s hog and cat dogs. My memory fails me sometimes but I’m pretty sure ole Goose did it too. I know there was another guy up close to Tyler Tx that doing quite a bit of it too. It’s like anything else, getting the right dogs and the niche is key. A buddy here bought a gyp that was a running dog cross. You honestly couldn’t tell by looking that she had anything else in her. The genetic split in that cross were not in her favor. She had longer hair like a lot of running dogs and not a very pretty head shape. She barked every time her foot hit the ground which is fine only she couldn’t keep up with me walking when she was in a dead run. She had to be crossed with a basset lol.


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[NLAhunter]

I had talked to goose few years ago about his crosses and he said the cat hounds he used in some of his crosses made pretty good dogs I went and talked with some july men and running walker men I found some old liquor bred running walkers is what I was kinda leaning towards at the time a buddy of mine last year  he bought a gyp out of some high bred running walkers that had been hunted on the outside alot I bred her to a male at the house and she didn't take

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[t-dog]

Just my thinking, but I would think the running dogs that had the chase to catch vs the chase to chase mind set would be the ones that gave you the best overall chance. I think we might start a running walker for a friend. He’s a fine made animal out of high caliber dogs. He got a little derailed by accident so hopefully he’ll take to the hogs. I’m not looking to breed to it but I am interested to see how he’ll do.


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[NLAhunter]

Yes sir most definitely got to find the ones that are running to catch the game not just running it to run it

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[Shotgun66]

The dogs I got started with were 1/2 running walker & 1/2 catahoula. They were very durable & consistent track & find dogs. Above average stamina & heat tolerance with very good ability to recover between hunts. Same dog pretty much every time you turned them loose. Only yipped on a hot track & barked on the jump. They were not open trailing dogs. They definitely liked the chase more than the bay. They wouldn’t leave a hog but they didn’t bark much on the bay & had very little stock sense. Got a couple of them bred down to 1/4 running walker, 3/4 catahoula and liked them better.

Here’s a pic of my favorite of them. Jake wasn’t the best or most talented dog but he gave an honest effort every time you turned him loose. I had a lot of good days in the woods with him!


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[WayOutWest]

He is a good looking sucker.

[t-dog]

There’s a lot of forgiveness that I can find to give if a dog like him if they are dependable and consistent like that. He was a pretty dog.  Do you not still have any of these dogs?

I use to really like the treeing walkers and I guess I still do, but they aren’t my first pick as a hound anymore. I went with the competition bred Walker blood because they were, as a whole, fast and had big motors. A lot of them are head up type hunters more son than most of the other breeds. The modern ones though are real subject to be straight line hunters and they are so competitive and independent that they don’t honor other dogs. That’s been selective breeding goal and it doesn’t suit me. Bear hunting is probably the closest thing to hog hunting and the most common hounds used for it are the plotts I would imagine. The traits that make them so good at it are the same traits we, or at least I,look for in hog dogs. They have to have drive, bottom, and courage just to get started. I mean Cajun can explain it better than I can, but those rascals get ran day after day in the mountains and do it well. That isn’t something that you just find anywhere. I’ve always been kinda curious about whether or not the running dogs could run day in and day out in the mountains like they do on the flatter ground. I’m not saying they can’t, I truly don’t know so if someone can answer that question for me, lay it on me.


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[Shotgun66]

Thanks WOW. I liked Jake’s color, head, straight legs& tight feet. He carried a little too much muscle & was broader chested than the others. He got more of the cat genes I guess. The others were narrow, deep chested lighter framed dogs.
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T Dog - I don’t have any of those dogs anymore. my places started shrinking & got too small to hunt those dogs with range & bottom & no brakes. I switched over to the dark side & started hunting these BMCs I hunt now. They fit my country better than those running dog crosses did. Polar opposite style dogs. The BMCs are way better bay dogs. Independent & gritty enough to bay rank boars but have enough stock sense to circle a sounder & not catch out on shoats. Primarily winding dogs that have to learn to trail. Not as durable or heat tolerant as the running dog crosses. Definitely don’t recover as quickly between hunts. A little more up & down performance from drop to drop. I’m only on my second generation right now. Got some breedings planned to go back to an aunt/nephew on the dam side and a half brother, half sister cross to get more of the sires traits. He’s my version of outlaw I’m trying to replicate.

Speaking of hounds, a fella named Mike Kemp out of Oregon had some running walker, treeing walker crosses that had a good reputation for turning out bear, lion, & bobcat hounds. Three Bear Kennels was his line.


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[t-dog]

I’m glad you found dogs to satisfy your needs. I sure hope you can duplicate your dog. That’s the fun part, finding the dog you want more of and trying to make more.

Mike Kemp produced a lot of dogs and a lot of good ones. I have only seen one or two and I will say, if the man offered me one, no matter how full I was on dogs, I’d have to give it a try. Super nice hounds that really seemed to have the tools. Mike has retired I believe. I think I heard he was no longer producing for the public. I’m the type that if I want Bayou Cajun blood, then I won’t be satisfied getting it elsewhere. The reason being that it only takes a generation or two to produce a different kind of dog. The selection process of brood stock, the eye for talent, and any understanding about how to pair dogs to get to where they want to be, as well as many other things will make the difference.


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