Cur dog Competion

[Wmwendler]

I have some ideas about a Cur dog competion.  Basically it would be organized to test a set of Cur dogs for the goods that make a Cur dog what its supposed to be both on hogs and Cattle.  It would be sort of a seriese of Competions, maybe held on different weekends.  Each competetor would have to put together a set of 4 dogs of which only 3 will be used at one time.  One part of the serieise would be on a group of semi wild hogs in a open wooded enclosure in which a group of hogs have to be bayed and driven to a pen with a wing.  I am thinking a group of hogs would be out of a tame sow off a wild boar and not messed with very much, but still capable of being driven to the pen with the right dogs and would  include several sows, a barrow, and several shoats.  The dogs would have to bay the group and the hogs be driven to the pen, points will be deducted for each hog that does not make it to the pen.  Points would also be deducted for catching and catching for longer than 30 seconds would be a DQ.  It would be a timed event with a standard time in which points would be deducted for each minute over the standard and points added for each minute under the standard.

The other part of the seriese would be on cattle and would be an everday type spring gathering of cattle on a cow calf operation.  Inlcuding some snakey cows with calves on the ground and a bull.  Other than that it would be about the same as the hog part.

Just an idea but it would be Cur dogs only, no crosses what so ever.  BMC, Catahoula, Brindle/east Texas Cur, Lacy dogs, Common Cur dogs, ect.  Would have three dogs on the ground in each competion and two of the dogs have to be used in both the hog and cattle comp.  One dog can be strictly Hog and one can be strictly cow.  Or all four can go both ways.  What do yall thing would this be something anyone is interested in.  It would be hard to organize but would be fun in my opinion.

Waylon

[hogzilla24]

Sounds like a great test for alot of dogs i would definately be interested if i had more full blood cur dogs.

[Wormy Dog Kennels]

 I hink this would be great, I would be interested

[bigo]

 If you ever get it done, I would love to see it. The dogs would be hard to come by as cow dogs these days are broke off hogs and hog dogs are broke off cattle. The way most people hunt hogs with catch dogs is not good traing for dogs that need to lead hogs. The event would show people what good dog is.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I would be all over a deal like that, what a great way to show case some real cur dogs....

[cward]

Set it up and I will be their!! Good idea! Driven the hogs and cows would still have to be done a horse back?

[catahoula]

sighn me up. just another day at work for me it would fun for every body to see what the dogs do on a day to day basis

[Dexter]

would muzzels be  allowed  my dogs are bad about shake and bake shoats

[Wmwendler]

Set it up and I will be their!! Good idea! Driven the hogs and cows would still have to be done a horse back?

Yeah it would be horse back but I'd leave the option open for people that wanted to it on foot. . 

Big o my hog dogs are broke off cows but I can sic em' on cattle and it does'nt take much sic em' if there is another dog allready baying cattle.  Dog that go both ways are few and far between but thats one reason why I would want to do something like this to preserve the tradition.

Dexter,  Its my opinion that a good true Cur dog should not catch a shoat out of a group of hogs and let the rest drift away in the process.  Thier goal should be to bunch the whole group or as many as possible.  As a matter of fact I'd prefer that my dogs dont even mess with shoats.... I could care less If I never catch a shoat again in my life, ofcourse thats not always what happens, but it is my ideal.  So shoat catching is a big DQ in my opinion.  I know sometimes after hogs scatter a stragling shoat by its self is too hard for almost any dog to pass up but it still irritates me I just have to put up with it untull I find something better.

Waylon

[cantexduck]

Sounds like a good event to showcase what curs did back then...

[TrueBlueLacys]

I'd love to watch. Unfortunately I don't know any dogs that work that way. Do people really work hogs like that anymore? Every time I hear of a dog multitasking, it's herding cattle and then hunting hogs, not herding them.

[skoalbandett]

 
Just my opinion,  A true well bed stock dog is a stock dog and should come here naturally working cattle and hogs the same way. In my view, it is the best way, at least it suits me and a bucket full of other old timers along with a few young fellers brought up in the way of the ways of open range, ranching and working live stock by folks who have used cur dogs for years to make a living, they understand.  New generations always want to reinvent the wheel, only natural.   

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I agree, there are many of us who still use dogs of the old curdog working style to work cattle and hogs. Those traits are being breed out by todays hog hunters. 
Here is an old pic of 6 of my dog holding up a sounder at bay. They held them for some time and I watched for a while before I sent in a catch dog. They work them ust like catttle circling and bunching, bringing any runners back to the bay and holding them there. I am sure that if I had had any kind of a fence to throw them against I could have driven and pened they easy.

[lightningh]

Cool pic Paul! I like seeing that catch dog headin that way! i bet she Hit that group like a train!! ive got to make the trip out that way to see that country sometime!

[uglydog]

Here is a dumb question for you Waylon, ho ware you going to Drive Hogs? Semi tame or not, will you have a fence or wall to push them along?

[Wmwendler]

Well this is just an idea, but I'd love to put it in motion some day if I have the resources to do it.

Krystal.......It would be in some sort of enclosure and I figure on it being somewhat rectangular in shape maybe like a 15-30 acre net wire trap, with a pen on one corner and a wing of some length.  Maybe with the holding pen on one end and the catch pen on the other.  To tell the truth I've never really tried to drive a hog very far.  But they did it in the past and used dogs that are the ancestors to the dogs that some of us use today.  So it can be done again, but we are not talking about the kind of hogs that we hunt we are talking about hogs that will tolerate the presence of a human being, but on the other hand not tame enough to go up and scratch behind the ears or even go up too at all.  lol.  It does'nt take much for a hog to get mean or "wild".  My grandpa raised hogs comercially for about 20 years and in that process my dad was bit, chased, put on the fence, you name it by a bad sows who did'nt want you messing with thier pigs.

TrueBlue......In my opinion there are allot of dogs out there today that could do it inlcuding many lacy dogs.  Just In my opinion not very many are not used or started in a way that promotes those, more "advanced", abilities of baying a group of hogs and ultimately driving them.  But they do have those genetic traits both currently and more so in thier lineage.  Those traits are more common in dogs that are used both ways, for gathering cattle and hunting hogs, because they have to maintain those skills to be usefull in the cow part of the deal.  And in my opinion the same skills apply to hogs because hogs are a herd animal its just that the wild hogs we have today are to the point that they are afraid of humans more than anything, and individual survival becomes more important to them than the good of the whole group and they will scatter to protect them selves.  Sow will even abandon piglets to save them selves.  But even today you see that instinct to rally and bunch to protect the group in wild hogs.  One time, that stands out in my mind in particular, was a group of three sows all three wet with pigs. They bayed so pretty I am certain that if I could have got them out of that thicket I could have driven them somewhere.  But sows with pigs are the easiest to bay in my opinion because they stand to fight and protect the pigs, however I also beleive that sometimes hunters dont to get to see this very often because the bay dogs either single one out and catch it or the catch dog does it for them before the hunters get there and they never new exactly what they had bayed all at once in the first place.  I often wonder how often a group of hogs gets bayed only for one shoat to get caught out and the others drift off.  I  know it does happen even to people like myself who prefer dogs that wont do that type of thing. The other side to this story is that hogs are very smart and it does not take them long after having thier mates get caught or shot out of a bay to figure out that its not as good an idea as thier instincts tell them it is.  But on the other hand I know that you can "dog break" wild hogs, As I have experimented with that my self.  On one occasion about 4 years ago I trapped two sows one ,black and one red, wet with little pigs and they were big mature sows but not very heavy with having the pigs on them.  The buying station prices were not worth the drive and I did not need the meat so I turned them loose for another day.  About a week later I bayed the same two sows, red and black with pigs, with my two females that were young at the time so I let the dogs bay and caught them off.  I decided I would use these hogs to work my young females if they would stay on this place and did so several times over a couple months.  Each time they afforded me more more pressure untill I was not afraid to let them know I was there.  Not long after that I was talking with a guy who hunts the same place and he caught both sows and some of the shoats.  But thats how it goes.

Some dogs are conscious about a group of hogs and some could care less, as long as they can single one hog out they are happy. Part of that is the breeding and part of that is how they are hunter and were started.  Even a dog that has the genetic traits to be conscious about a group can be ruined by hunting him with other dogs that could care less.  I consider it to be ruined but some people might not, to each his own.  Some dogs will allways be conscious about a group, no matter how they are hunted.  A freind of mine once had a big rough catahoula, emphasis on big and rough.  That dog might catch (or try) a rank boar one day and bay a pile of shoats the next, but in my opinion that dog was just conscious about a group.  Ok thats my 2 cents, but now I gotta stop runnin my mouth.

Waylon

 

[cward]

You can drive them with out a lane I have done it....The problem is choate breaking  you would have to deduct points on hogs that are not penned .....!! If you are a horse back the hogs will stay calm when you get a foot they will start breaking same with cattle....Yes Paul is right about people breeding the true stock out of them!! Skoal I agree the dog should be born with instinct!!But people have breed it out,,, I have said this once before some may not understand ..... I  learned how to hunt and catch hogs by cowboys not by hog hunters...I hunt with a lot of hog hunters but there is a diffence in the way they hunt.... I hunt both ways Now but like the old cowboys way the best.....

[skoalbandett]

CWard.. there are still some folks breeding for and demanding those instincts in their dogs, just not many. You'd like those boys at Smithville deal and what they breed and are doing..

I think one other thing has changed the hogs and educated them..Lots of folks think it's just the russiab  influence. It may be to a point but, domestic hogs will revert real quick when running wild and can get every bit as wild.  This aint to popular statement I know but I believe it, Nowdays, It's  Catch dogs and Catchy bay dogs that have had the biggest influence in change and educating hogs and are determining their actions.  I think most everyone  knows what happens when  other hogs in the group hear and see a hog start squeeling with a dog hung off his ear. Those that survive  are taught not to bay up and to carry the mail as fast and as far as they can.
Tough to find and gettin tougher to find some  you can drive today, but you can if you get into some that arent educated by the current methods of hog hunting , know what you are doing and have the right dogs for the job.

[uglydog]

Guys I may be way off here, but I would say there are some dogs out there that still got "IT" but I have to admit, I use a dog in a specialty manner myself and have little knowledge how to get that aspect out of a dog because I have "NO NEED" to,  Now I am game to see these dogs some put on a pedalstool on how its done.
My Grandpa tell some stories of driving Hogs out of the woods in the old Piney woods where Lufkin sits today. I believe it can be done, but I don't think those dogs, as how he descibes them would top the natural independent rangy hog dogs alot are using today, because the dogs depended alot on "listening" to the handler. I ain't satying one is better, everybody has their preferences but it is awhole other type of dog and style.
But I would be ready to see or participate in this myself when you get it all worked out Waylon.

[cward]

Yes Sir Skoal you are right!! I have a yellow gyp that I need a out cross with she is 88% my blood and is a super lead dog handles with a wisper...I Call her ellie....Not Rough at all but can hold a herd of 100 !! I like that dog of Clues....But sure need an out cross with and wanting to breed her bad just ain't found any thing to breed her to that i like....She is do to come inheat any day!
 Uglydog  There is a differents...My dogs  are not super long range dogs but catch lots of hog with them...They could be ..but useing them both ways put way more handle on them witch does shorten there range up...Also makes numbers come up when catching hogs they will roll out as fast as you can get one caught if it takes you and hour to get to a long range dog all the other hogs have left the seen before you get there witch means one hog!!Most the ranchers are happy if you remove one hog and they are enven happier when you remove 10!!