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UNDERDOG
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« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2009, 01:15:43 am » |
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. With that being said, the "gameness" aspect of a dog may be able to be taught if done correctly. For example, weight pulling dogs, mostly APBT's, have shown that those trained to pull for their owners satisfaction (gameness) regularly out perform those trained differently. Dogs who are trained to pull solely for the satisfaction of treats or some other reward have been shown to be very tempermental and give up easily....
Nick, I respectfully dis agreea bout gameness being taught,now some will work harder for a good handle vs being force pulled etc. But I will go deeper tommorow as I need to get up to hunt a 5am. Take care. |
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Beejay
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« Reply #21 on: November 28, 2009, 06:11:07 am » |
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mostly APBT's, have shown that those trained to pull for their owners satisfaction (gameness) Nick, where did you get your info from. Where did you get this definition of gameness. I think you may need to do some more research on your dogs. Gameness cannot be taught, if that was the case any dog could be a catchdog. My definition of gameness -- willingness to continue despite taking punishment. Don't confuse gameness with aggression. An aggressive dog is not necessarily a game dog. People who don't understand this take aggressive dogs, breed them and make more aggressive dogs. In the 1970s a pit bull attack was unheard of. The men who had the dogs knew what to look and breed for. It wasn't until the dogs ended up in the hands of ignorant thugs that pit bull attacks started taking place. BAD BREEDING. Not knowing the difference between gameness and aggression. In my opinion, the APBT has the most stable temperament of any dog. I raised gamedogs for years and never had a dog just turn and attack. They are what they are, if I had a dog that acted funny towards people I knew it from the first day I had them. The stories of these dogs (most of the time) turning and just attacking is BS. The dog was human aggressive the whole time and I guarantee the owner knew it. The phrase "turn on" is a whole different story than what it has been recognized as. Nick, I don't expect you to understand everything I'm saying, people with gamedogs know exactly what I mean. I'm sorry, I started rambling on. Nick, my advice is to search and study up on the gamedog, maybe even own a few then form your own opinion. Don't believe everything the media tells you. |
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:12:13 am by Beejay »
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Beejay
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« Reply #22 on: November 28, 2009, 06:46:12 am » |
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Underdog, sounds like you are familiar with the game lines of APBT. I like your opinions and views, and seems like you know your stuff. Give me a holler sometime.
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:12:50 am by Beejay »
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Monteria
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« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2009, 07:26:04 am » |
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Yeah beejay imo you're right on bout breeding for color or short legs or whatever, my neighbor breeds blues and I really see the line heading towards fat headed Basset hounds eventually. That being said if somebody has a blue that's workin for you I ain't dissin it.
Hell, I have two (who catch perfectly as previously stated) and I'll still dis them for the fact that most are bred only for color. Sure, some will catch, as mine do, but I figure that I just got lucky. Any individual animal, especially one bred specifically to express a single phenotypical trait, while ignoring all other traits, requires close inspection, by mindful eye, before being awarded any credentials. Steve |
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Scott
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« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2009, 07:51:02 am » |
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As Underdog and BeeJay said, "gameness" cannot be taught. What's more, there is no legal way to prove a dog game. Historical definition of "game": A dog who chooses to continue, even when given the opportunity to quit, when it's getting it's azz handed to him.
There no way a dog can be proven "game" (at least in the historical sence) by hunting hogs...
To those true APBT fanciers...the blues are known as "bluffs"....as in not a gamebred dog (or not a true APBT).
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ETHHunters
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« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2009, 08:09:26 am » |
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As Underdog and BeeJay said, "gameness" cannot be taught. What's more, there is no legal way to prove a dog game. Historical definition of "game": A dog who chooses to continue, even when given the opportunity to quit, when it's getting it's azz handed to him.
There no way a dog can be proven "game" (at least in the historical sence) by hunting hogs...
To those true APBT fanciers...the blues are known as "bluffs"....as in not a gamebred dog (or not a true APBT).
I dont understand. Unless that definition is only referring to dog dighting. Looks to me a dog caught on a hog and holds on until hes dead or hurt so seriously he may never catch again fit that description very close. I had one that caught a hog when I pulled him off his jaw was broke all he had to hold with on the bottom was one k9 and he never did let go and he took some major abuse. To me that fits your desciption of game to a T. |
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Beejay
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« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2009, 08:15:07 am » |
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Dog on hog, dog on dog. Very different. Thats all I got to say about that, I won't incriminate myself.
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ETHHunters
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« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2009, 08:20:47 am » |
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So that definition is only for dog on dog.
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Beejay
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« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2009, 08:31:09 am » |
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Most pits will catch a hog, fewer will go with a dog. In my hog hunting experience, most bulldogs never had to hold a hog over 20 minutes. Some dog battles hours.
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Florida Curdog
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« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2009, 08:33:48 am » |
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I had a blue gyp that would catch a train if you told her to  Caught many hogs with her and she never let go. She would find her own hog and catch it if it was close or she would run straight to a bay. She had alot of hunt to her I don't know where she came from. I got her from a guy that hunted her but had to get rid of her because of home owners insurance reasons. I don't know about the rest of the blues but this one was bad to the bone. I wouldn't mind having another one like her. |
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Smiling like a killer
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ETHHunters
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« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2009, 08:34:11 am » |
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I see I dont know anything about that. Just curious about what that definition was referring to.
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Beejay
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« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2009, 08:41:01 am » |
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In my opinion, you can tell a certain level of gameness from a catchdog, but gamedogs are on a different level.
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ETHHunters
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« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2009, 08:45:12 am » |
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I know it is different but all apbt I have had for catch dogs would fight a hog until one of them died. To me that takes a pretty high level of gameness.
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Scott
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« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2009, 08:52:12 am » |
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As Underdog and BeeJay said, "gameness" cannot be taught. What's more, there is no legal way to prove a dog game. Historical definition of "game": A dog who chooses to continue, even when given the opportunity to quit, when it's getting it's azz handed to him.
There no way a dog can be proven "game" (at least in the historical sence) by hunting hogs...
To those true APBT fanciers...the blues are known as "bluffs"....as in not a gamebred dog (or not a true APBT).
I dont understand. Unless that definition is only referring to dog dighting. Looks to me a dog caught on a hog and holds on until hes dead or hurt so seriously he may never catch again fit that description very close. I had one that caught a hog when I pulled him off his jaw was broke all he had to hold with on the bottom was one k9 and he never did let go and he took some major abuse. To me that fits your desciption of game to a T. When it comes to the term "game" when referring to dogs...there is only the definition I previously stated. And no, your example does not fit the description...the dog was never given the opportunity to quit...he was engaged with the hog the entire time. Your example fits the definition of "heart" not "game". |
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Beejay
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« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2009, 08:58:55 am » |
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I agree, most pits that will catch will hold until the end. I'm currently using a rigdeback cross and just started an AB for catching. I'm very iffy about it though because I'm familiar with pits and i know i don't have to worry about a pit letting go. Not while they are still living anyway. The thing is going dog on dog, as time goes on injuries start taking there toll, the initial adrenaline rush has subsided, nothing left but sure willpower. This is where gameness comes into play. Imagine being a boxer going 12 rounds and in the 8 round you can't even hold your arms up any more, your legs are shot, and you have a few broken ribs. Would you have the gameness to go on. I'm hoping this relationship shows my perspective on it.
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« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 09:03:24 am by Beejay »
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ETHHunters
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« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2009, 09:01:35 am » |
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I totally understand what you are saying. But that also sounds like it takes as much heart as game.
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Randy_P
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« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2009, 09:02:54 am » |
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So what do we call it when the hog and dog are separated, the pit is leashed up but begins chewing everything down around him to go back to the hog? He has had the chance to quit but refuses to. Isn't this how dog fights are? They fight, separate, and fight again. Sounds the same to me.
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Beejay
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« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2009, 09:10:45 am » |
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Scott is giving you a historical definition of the word game. A word that has derived from gamedog men of old. This definition was used to describe a dog on dog battle. The word was not used to indentify dogs that would catch and hold hogs, it was used to describe how long a dog would stay in battle with another dog. I myself believe it does take gameness to catch a hog, to what extent the dog is game is my argument. Certain Patterdales, Jagds, and even some Jack Russells are game to an extent. Just different level of gameness. This is just my opinion.
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Randy_P
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« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2009, 09:17:37 am » |
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I agree. We have had discussions before on true pitbulls vs. fake ones. I am more partial to the bigger pits. Definately not interested in 30lb fireballs. Even though they may be the "true" game dog lines. I just have a slight problem when people start talking about certain dogs because of color are not true pitbulls or whatever breed is being discussed. Just my 2 cents.
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Beejay
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« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2009, 09:27:27 am » |
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To me it depends on what its for. I like gamedogs 40-50 pounds, catchdogs 55-75 pounds. It is just two totally different animals. I just don't believe you can take a big dog bred for catching and call him a gamedog, not saying he doesn't have a certain level of gameness in him, the term is reserved for battledogs. As far as these big blue pot belly pig looking dogs, I don't consider them pits. I call them petbulls. Just my opinion.
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