Why not open mouthed?

[BigAinaBuilt]

Claudine322- When you spend $1500 on a dog that is supposed to come from bay competition champion lines and then another 1200 for quarantine which means you wait 180 days after you pay for the dog just to have it reach and disssapoint, You have to recollect your losses one way or another! Here in Hawaii our hunting REQUIRES a cross bred dog so if by bringing the pure Plott here doesn't work there is always someone waiting for the "Champion" blood to hit the islands so that they can mix it into their line for added nose.

As far as me getting burned by his offspring, If that dog was actually chasing a pig I would have been alot more impressed then I am with the pure bred Plotts and would probably have some of his blood mixed into my pack today.

 If you don't mind spending $2700 just to CULL it feel free to contact me and I will send you a "Champion finished main helper dog" with my personal gaurantee that it will eat and crap in your yard daily!

[WestTexasCurs]

I have both open an silent dogs i have taken my silent dogs out and they ran a hog a mile and caught it an the next time i went hunting i took some of my open dogs and caught one 20 yards from the truck on the same ranch that i have been doggin for 18 to 19  years and my dogs can runwith the best of them. My point is i think it all depends on the hog alot of the hogs in my area travel quite a ways and when you get on them they are goin back where they come from and they are not goin to stop till they get there dont matter if you have a dog chewing on there nuts are not. My hound crosses only barks if they are right on the hogs azz and running with there head up not with there head down trailing on the ground they are not barkin a mile behind them i do belief if a dog is blabling on trail barkin behind or barkin out of place or cold trailing a hog that been there 5 hours ago yea you are goin to hav a chase and a long night. JMO

What he said......

[Mike]

Fellas if some of y'all can't post without throwing your smart a$$ comments in... then don't post at all. Share what you know, what you've learned, your views and leave it at that. There's million different ways to do things and everyone isn't going to agree with everyone else.

There's been a lot of that going on here lately. It's getting old and we're getting tired of it. The smart a$$es are about to be culled.

[chainrated]

I've hunted both silent dogs and open dogs. I prefer silent dogs but I hunt regularly with some guys that hunt plotts.. I think a silent dog gives you an advantage at one crucial point in the hunt,  at the very beginning before the dog finds the hog. When the hog does not know yet something is after him. I think a silent dog has an advantage at this time and will sometimes bay a hog that an open dog would not have because the hog heard him coming. Now once the hog decides to run, he knows something is after him and he's gonna run either way.
I prefer silent dogs but I know for a fact you can catch hogs with either.. A lot of people don't like hounds just because somebody else said they don't and neither I don't think have hunted with a good one. There are just as many sorry hounds as there are sorry cur dogs. The majority of the hounds I've hunted with were sorry but I've also had the pleasure of hunting with a mighty good one. She was 30 lbs soaking wet and I had as much faith in her as any other dog.. I still prefer silent dogs but I know there are some real good open dogs that are not just running around in the woods barking at anything they smell. There is a difference , just as there is with cur dogs.  Some dogs bay hogs and some don't...

[kevin]

 Matt, reading your post made me think.  You think open dogs are more likely to end up in a gators belly?

[chainrated]

Yes I do..

[Goatcher]

I have never hunted with open hounds other than a Jagd terrier !!! He could sometimes get it done but what usually happened was the hogs would hear him coming and run like hell. I personally saw hogs run ahead of him after they heard him bark. From talking to people the only way you can catch a hog with open hounds is if the hogs stops. I guess maybe some really fast hounds that can close the distance and/or run him till he is tired. I have heard too many stories of hound hunters having races that last for hours and hours. One guy told me his dogs would run one off of a 25000 acre plantation. On small porperties that ain't good. I personally don't have thousands of acres to mess with a hound. Big properties I guess they are fine. Small properties no.

QUIET DOGS = SHORTER HUNTS   ?
OPEN DOGS = LONGER HUNTS      ?

Jagdterriers are not open mouth hounds.  Some are open on track, some mostly silent and some totally silent.  I have nine and they are in the last two categories. In fact I have never heard of an open mouth jagdterrier, except for some very inexperienced posters on another board, making overly broad statements from have hunted with one Jag, one time.  A green Jagdterrier is highly likely to run on open trail mode, but they, like curs and a few hounds, learn to shut-up to catch up.  I have hunted with many curs that are more open on trail than Jagdterriers.

JSH stated it earlier TRACK SPEED is where its at.  Hogs can only run all out for a short while, then tire fast.  If a dog lets them trot and walk, and their trot is about 15 mph, that hog can hold that pace for all day.  But a dog that puts just a little more pressure, so the hog has to break out of that trot every so often, it will tire and bay up.  Then if the dog tries to catch the hog or attack too hard, its off to the races again.  However, if the dog bays it ata reasonable distance it might stand there all day.  If it goes to break bay at a walk, the dog has to hit the back end to out it back into standing mode.  Sometimes if a dog is too hard on the back end, it makes matters worse, and the hog is running again.

[Bump]

Jagdterriers are not open mouth hounds.  Some are open on track, some mostly silent and some totally silent.  I have nine and they are in the last two categories. In fact I have never heard of an open mouth jagdterrier, except for some very inexperienced posters on another board, making overly broad statements from have hunted with one Jag, one time.  A green Jagdterrier is highly likely to run on open trail mode, but they, like curs and a few hounds, learn to shut-up to catch up.  I have hunted with many curs that are more open on trail than Jagdterriers.

JSH stated it earlier TRACK SPEED is where its at.  Hogs can only run all out for a short while, then tire fast.  If a dog lets them trot and walk, and their trot is about 15 mph, that hog can hold that pace for all day.  But a dog that puts just a little more pressure, so the hog has to break out of that trot every so often, it will tire and bay up.  Then if the dog tries to catch the hog or attack too hard, its off to the races again.  However, if the dog bays it at a reasonable distance it might stand there all day.  If it goes to break bay at a walk, the dog has to hit the back end to out it back into standing mode.  Sometimes if a dog is too hard on the back end, it makes matters worse, and the hog is running again.

[/quote]

Well said. I too agree with the running and endurance of a hog.

[Beejay]

A friend and I were discussing this topic today.   You guys say that a open mouth dog pushes hogs....Do hogs not know when silent dogs are trailing them after they have been jumped???  Hogs are going to run regardless most of the time.  The ones that keep running have dogs that are chasing rather than biting and making the hog stop and fight.  Open dogs DO NOT push hogs.....hogs that keep running have dogs that are not getting the job done!!  Just my opinion

I'm with agteach on this one. I have ran with both and from my experience, if they're going to run they will run, doesn't matter. I believe a lot of times a hound will be running a 5 hour track, and people say "they're pushing the hog" when in actuallity, they haven't even caught up to the hog that is 5 hours away.  I have silent dogs, but to me the sound of an open hound is awesome. I do agree that closed mouth = short hunt and open = long hunt though. I think most open dogs have colder noses. I said most, not all. JMO

[Goatcher]

my son is a dyed in the wool plott man.  I have plotts too, but they are for special hunts, most the time I use silent curs and terriers.  He would rather run one hog 3-4 hours then catch it and let it go, rather than catch 5 hogs in the same time period with silent dogs.  He is not alone in that regards and catches some quality boars.

I have found most of the hounds (my experience is mainly with plotts, and one walker, and one bluetick) chase hogs too far when they are under 3 years old because they are not fast enough on processing  a track.  When they get older, things get much better, because they are faster.  I shorten my hound chases by tossing in jagdterriers, but even then a 2 mile  to 7 mile race and a 2 hour plus bay is not unusual.  I have been in trouble a few times because of those dogs!   

My philosophy is (even though I love hounds) the only reason anyone runs anything else is because there are not enough good curs to go around.

[Pecos21]

When I was introduced to hunting hogs with dogs the guys I hunted with had all closed mouth stuff and couldn't stand an open mouthed dog.  Now these same guys all have some open mouthed dogs.  We have had no trouble finding hogs with either.  The number of hogs we catch has been virtually the same.  What are the advantages of closed mouth dogs?  Anybody got any proof to back up their opinions or is it what your guessing?  

Hunting in Northern Polk County, Florida with opened mouthed dogs growing up in the '80's was a good time.....we would cut the hounds loose and listen to the race for what seemed like hours....as Mickey Mouse and his gang began to develop more and more to the South...those races got shortened by security guards and Game Wardens......(because those hounds can't read signs when they crossed the fence on to ol' Mickey's place.....) So then we went to closed mouth Curs.....and they would bark only when looking at the hog.....and those long races turned into quick catches......and rarely a Game Warden..... So I do have proof to back up my statement....  

[outlaw14slayer]

Pecos21, What kind of hounds were you running back in the 80's and when did you go to the curs?  What line of curs do you run?  Do you think the length of your races in the 80's with hounds as compared to the current races with curs has anything to do with the fact that there are many more hogs now than there were in the 80's?  What is the makeup of a typical hog in your area?  Around here we had very few feral hogs until around 1990.  That's when they really began to take off around here.  We still have a good bit of Russian blood running around here.  In the mid 80's a guy in town decided he would start raising Russian hogs, so he bought a pen full of brood stock.  His pen didn't hold them for long hence our Russian blood.
     The dogs I hunt with are not wide open.  They will bark on a super hot track and after they see one, but don't just bark without purpose.

[outlaw14slayer]

Goatcher, What line of curs do you prefer and why?  What line of Plotts does your son run?  When you were feeding the Jadgs into the hound race did you have any trouble with your bay dogs getting cut up?  What makes a hound slower on track?  If a hound nose is on average colder than a cur nose would it make sense that a colder nosed hound may be slower on the track than a cur because the hound is overwhelmed by the amount of scent on a hot track?

[Pecos21]

Pecos21, What kind of hounds were you running back in the 80's and when did you go to the curs?  What line of curs do you run?  Do you think the length of your races in the 80's with hounds as compared to the current races with curs has anything to do with the fact that there are many more hogs now than there were in the 80's?  What is the makeup of a typical hog in your area?  Around here we had very few feral hogs until around 1990.  That's when they really began to take off around here.  We still have a good bit of Russian blood running around here.  In the mid 80's a guy in town decided he would start raising Russian hogs, so he bought a pen full of brood stock.  His pen didn't hold them for long hence our Russian blood.
     The dogs I hunt with are not wide open.  They will bark on a super hot track and after they see one, but don't just bark without purpose.

We used Running Walkers (foxhounds) down in Central Florida. And the hog population down there has always been large as long as I can remember. My dad ran hogs with dogs in the 70's and they caught lots of hogs. When I switched to Curs, we used Florida curs and Leopard dogs (they were the bigger leopards with the jugheads not like most of the NALC stuff today). I now run a variety of cur dogs. At this moment I have a Campbell Cur and an Outlaw Cur x Catahoula cross.

 The hogs we had where the Pineywood rooters... decendants of the hogs the were brought to Florida by Ponce DeLeon. They had long snouts big teeth and could run like the wind for a long time. But when cornered they would fight. That is the reason I think the Cur dogs did so well because they caught them off guard. So the hog would back into a palmetto head and fight. That is reason I think I have success now...we have a lot of Russian blodd around Van Zandt County, TX. I am not sure how long hogs have been in this area. I moved here in '97 and was hunting them then.

[outlaw14slayer]

Pecos,  So you are a Texan!  I live in Cass county about 35 miles NE of Longview.  We have a bunch of runners up here, but most of them eventually bay.  Most of our hogs don't seem to leave the country regardless of what type of dogs you run on them.  Most seem to run around in the same area (at least thats what the dog tracks on the Garmin would indicate).  Sometimes up to 7 miles in a 1 sq. mile area.  We have had big boars seemingly intentionally run the dogs through groups of hogs for their own self preservation.  We've had big boars watch quietly as we were hobbling other hogs.  Jumped them laid up in thickets and button willows until you nearly stepped on them on the way to a near-by bay.  We have had times we've had hogs that simply stayed too far out in front that we didn't catch up with.  We have not had a time that I can say we ran them out of the country with open or closed dogs. The last couple hogs we caught bayed up within a mile of where we turned out.  One hunt was a couple hours long and one was about 30 min (would have been about 15 min, but had to drive out of the way to get to where the dogs were).   Some of our hunts last 5 minutes, some 4 hours.  I think regardless of the type of dogs folks run they have all had these short/long hunts.

[parker]

i  have  hunted  with both  open dogs and  silent  dogs on coon and  hogs ..... i  have  owned  3  different  enclosures from 50  acres  to  100  acres  and  i  now  own  one  300  acres ..... the  open mouthed  dogs  run  the hogs  alot  more  than the  silent  dogs  do .... no  doubt ....  but you can  have  great  hunts  with  both ...... just depends on the hog  you get after ....

[Goatcher]

Goatcher, What line of curs do you prefer and why?  What line of Plotts does your son run?  When you were feeding the Jadgs into the hound race did you have any trouble with your bay dogs getting cut up?  What makes a hound slower on track?  If a hound nose is on average colder than a cur nose would it make sense that a colder nosed hound may be slower on the track than a cur because the hound is overwhelmed by the amount of scent on a hot track?

Outlaw14slayer

The curs I like fit the Parker Cur model, but I have never owned a full Parker.  I am starting to hate the NALC bay pen stuff.  Some of my friends have them and they fight a hog well, but a 6 month old jagdterrier will out hunt most of them.  I was a bay pen judge over 15 years ago when it all started and I had no idea back then how that nonsense would ruin the world of woods dogs.  My old line of curs were from cowdog lines off the NB Hunt ranch.  Mostly BMC, but they mixed in some leopard catahoulas.  I now have a good  brindle long-legged female, about three years old from Mississippi lines, she is not high energy, but just drifts way off, sometimes a mile or more and ends up where the hogs are.  Totally silent.  I am no expert on curs, just I have caught a mess of hogs and have great memorys with the dogs over many years.  I am very partial to cur x hound crosses, and find 25% redbone or plott in with 75% cur to be my best dogs and the best dogs owned by others I have hunted with.  I currently do not have any mixed breeds.

Between my son and I, we have 5 plotts.  Three of those are from Orval Robert's breeding, fine legged, 35 to 40 pound females built like running fox hound types.  They are not rough at all, but have stick and good noses, and hustle.  The other two plotts are the big old boys, the big game strain from the breedings by Mike Cauley (Bayou Cajun) and Trey Love.  The male is catchy, more than twice the size of the Robert's plotts, and I try to run him alone because he is slow and catchy, while he is still young and learning.

My son has the two blue plotts from Roberts.  I had two black ones from same litter, but gave the slower one to Joey Young (JHY).  She might not make his standards.  But she has found and bayed me a few.

I did not notice more injuries after the jagdterriers go in, until you mentioned it!  Dang, you may be on to something there.  Last spring we had a nasty boar bayed several times.  My son turned in a jag and we got three dogs cut and my cur almost got gutted.  And right before last Thanksgiving we had to leave the dogs and drive around a big bayou, took 2 hours, and my favorite plott Ziggy got cut, as well as all three jags by a 350 pound barr hog that ended bayed in a ditch.  The blue plotts did not get cut.  However, most the time we do not get hurt dogs, we just catch the hogs.

You said:  What makes a hound slower on track?

I think many things, the first is stupid.  The second is youth and inexperience.  I think gamey hounds realize they are going too slow and eventually get faster because they want the game.  Sissy hounds stay slow their whole life because they like to chase, not catch up to dangerous game.  But your theory (above) is also a major factor.  Maybe the most important one.  I notice when my cur runs with the hounds she runs head up and off of the actual track 50 t0 100 feet.  The hounds run the hog's hoof prints.  When they get close to the hog, the cur is 100 to 200 yards ahead of the hounds.  But that was when the hounds were young, now they are so fast none of the other dogs can keep up.  I have a jagterrier that ran with the hounds when they were slower for 5-6 miles almost every hunt.  Now even she cannot keep up for very long.  

I was given a plott puppy by Orval Roberts in 1997.  I started her behind a good silent cur dog, so she had a handle like a cur, and was only semi-open.  My son got a big old cold nosed blue tick hound, Roscoe, as a pup a year later.  The blue tick and the plott eventually became a team.  He would rig strike off of an ATV, she never did.   He would run a cold trail from the day before that she could smell, but she would not line out on.  But when the hog turned on the track or made little loops like they do, Roscoe would scrub the track there for an hour if you let him or even worse, back track.  The plott would figure those things out in a second and they would be off on the right track again.  The plott was the fastest track processor I ever hunted with, she could track on a dead all out run, she just did not have the cold nose of that blue tick.  But sometimes she was running a line so fast, she would overshoot it and the slower blue tick would find the turn first.  He started out his career fairly mouthy, in fact I would complain to my son about that a bit.  But eventually he learned to shut up to catch up and they both made quite the pair for a few years.  Roscoe got killed when my son hand caught a big toothy boar with just those two bay dogs on it.  As he rolled the hog, Rosco piled on and took a tusk directly into his heart.  Roscoe was an example of what you stated, he was so overwhelmed with processing scents, it slowed him down.  I think real intelligent hounds get over this over-stimulation and learn to process scent very fast.  I believe curs are as good as they are because they are smart dogs, maybe more intelligent than most other breeds.  But they too can have their contrary ways.

[outlaw14slayer]

Goatcher, Thanks for all the good feedback!  Have a great Christmas and good hunting!   

[Ladogos]

I have both open an silent dogs i have taken my silent dogs out and they ran a hog a mile and caught it an the next time i went hunting i took some of my open dogs and caught one 20 yards from the truck on the same ranch that i have been doggin for 18 to 19  years and my dogs can runwith the best of them. My point is i think it all depends on the hog alot of the hogs in my area travel quite a ways and when you get on them they are goin back where they come from and they are not goin to stop till they get there dont matter if you have a dog chewing on there nuts are not. My hound crosses only barks if they are right on the hogs azz and running with there head up not with there head down trailing on the ground they are not barkin a mile behind them i do belief if a dog is blabling on trail barkin behind or barkin out of place or cold trailing a hog that been there 5 hours ago yea you are goin to hav a chase and a long night. JMO

X 2   

And I also have mediocore dogs and they will bark on a HOT track meaning if it breaks or is right in front of them .          From My experiance ,  If on a dogs intial seeing a hog bays or even barks at him on first sight and then the hog breaks . It doesnt matter if the dog is silent or open because the hog knows a dog is behind him already.  And beleive me a hog can hear a totally silent dog behind him. Have seen it several times.  The hog can hear the brush and leaves comeing in behind him.   Just from some of my experiance.  I dont mind a dog that barks a little after the hog breaks .  Kinda helps the young dogs go to em and makes em want to stay up with the older dogs.  As opposed to the young dogs only going to a bay an then learn to be a  " Me Too " dog .  Which wouldn't last long at my place. I don't need any help dogs.  I want all my dogs to want to find the own hog or run with the pack .

[Jeff]

i agree track speed is a big factor with open dogs. i think in addition to that, an open dog should focus on the hog he started, to tire him out, rather than bouncing from hog to hog througout the hunt.  if he keeps switching hogs, they're always fresh.

ive only heard of a couple dogs that'll stick with the same hog til the end.  ya'll ever hunted behind one?