Thoms balck mouth curs out of Three Rivers , TX

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

skoalbandett ,

On the money.  Camp out for a while.

[craig]

Mr. skoalbandit
  glad to see you are feeling well enough to give us some good feed back,  thanks for posting the truth.

[Txmason]

Any one that would like to meet Mr. David Thoms and see his dogs work, they will be at the Working Dog Expo first week end in March 2010 and will be putting on a Demo for TDHA along with Gilbert Thompson.

The Thoms are members in good standing with TDHA and have offered to do what ever they can to help out in our trying to Protect and preserve the right to hunt and use working dogs.

[make-em-squeel]

Any one that would like to meet Mr. David Thoms and see his dogs work, they will be at the Working Dog Expo first week end in March 2010 and will be putting on a Demo for TDHA along with Gilbert Thompson.

The Thoms are members in good standing with TDHA and have offered to do what ever they can to help out in our trying to Protect and preserve the right to hunt and use working dogs.

Thats good to know, he is doing alot more for the sport than I am. Good looking dogs, Randy Wright has some good stuff as well I just had some bad luck with some tall stories but I think they are doing a lot of good overall. 

[catchem777]

that was the best post on the forum hands down i spoke with skoal bandit awhile back an can only wish i had the knowledge that gentelman has

[Randy_P]

I made a reply on here during the THoms Blackmouths thread saying that I purchased two pups from Thoms and that they are not making the grade and will probably take them back.  This is a true statement but to clear things up I have spoken with Mr. Thoms on numerous occasions about what the pups have been doing.  In NO way was this to be taken as Mr. Thoms being dishonest and a crook.  Mr. Thoms guarantees his dogs to work on whatever you train them on.  This means the dog is to satisfy you in whatever you want it to do, if not bring them back and he will give your money back or let you pick a different pup.  The guarantee till a year means you are to work the dogs until they are a year before Thoms wants you to bring them back.  To my knowledge Mr. Thoms has always been honest and straight with everyone he deals with.  It seems as if there are people on this forum that like to get stuff started and repeat things a little different than the way they actually heard them.  If you do not understand what I am talking about then don't bother asking, if you do know what I am implying about people calling Randy Wright to get things stirred up in order to TOOT your horn then feel free to get in contact with me through a PM and we can get things straight in person!!!  It is ridiculous how grown men like to act like a bunch of DAMN SCHOOL GIRLS!

[BigAinaBuilt]

Hey Agteach11! I'm not sure if my question got left on the previous page and just never got noticed but I was curious if the pup doesn't turn out after a year and you take it back and opt for another dog do you get another 8 week old pup or one that is firing at 1 year old?? Just curious how this whole gaurantee works out, If it was me I would be pretty let down after working a pup for a year just to have to start back at the basics with a new pup and would just ask for a refund.

[Ladogos]

[dgdawsonBMCs]

pm sent.. I don' know where most of the pics were taken on that website, but the second pic is actually me in North Lousiana at a guy named Marty Capers place back in about 2004..  Yes, it is a 300 acre penned area...you caught me ..

[TexasHogDogs]

skoalbandett

Been reading all of this and that was a great great post.
I will say this when a man starts to breed numbers of liters for money and not for himself that is when the dogs take the hit and the quality starts to fall because once the $ becomes involved it clouds the mind and becomes the focus more so than the quality of the animals he are she is breeding.  Also I will never believe any dog are any animal for that matter if he is bred numerous times has never produced a cull , don't believe it never will , its impossible just aint going to happen and throws up red flags for me .  People want to have the best but there is big differences between great bred dogs and great peforming and even more so with great producing dogs .  You can wad up the super papers, the registerys, the fancy names and all the hoop lie that goes along with them and throw it in the trash, its worthless if the dog is no good.   The eyes are the windows of the soul believe what you see with the dogs work not with his name are how he is bred are who bred him as a lot want to do these days.  I say all of this in no disrespect towards no one just from long hard experince.  The big  $ change everything.

[Ladogos]

skoalbandett

Been reading all of this and that was a great great post.
I will say this when a man starts to breed numbers of liters for money and not for himself that is when the dogs take the hit and the quality starts to fall because once the $ becomes involved it clouds the mind and becomes the focus more so than the quality of the animals he are she is breeding.  Also I will never believe any dog are any animal for that matter if he is bred numerous times has never produced a cull , don't believe it never will , its impossible just aint going to happen and throws up red flags for me .  People want to have the best but there is big differences between great bred dogs and great peforming and even more so with great producing dogs .  You can wad up the super papers, the registerys, the fancy names and all the hoop lie that goes along with them and throw it in the trash, its worthless if the dog is no good.   The eyes are the windows of the soul believe what you see with the dogs work not with his name are how he is bred are who bred him as a lot want to do these days.  I say all of this in no disrespect towards no one just from long hard experince.  The big  $ change everything.

X 2    X 2     SPOT ON

[buddylee]

If the man is giving a guarantee and honors it then it doesn't sound like he is letting money cloud his vision. The best breeder I know in Georgia doesn't give a guarantee or trial. He sells pups for about $150 and on started dogs he gets $900 and up without a guarantee or trial. He will show them in a big pen and in the woods. All dogs are a gamble, some just better odds than others.

[skoalbandett]

Thanks guys.. I sure meant no harm to anyone it was just a small part of what I believe is true and hopeful helpful to folks starting out if they choose to listen.  

Agteach11...
 I understand what you mean and I don’t think you meant any harm to the man. Truth is, sometimes the truth and history isn’t warm fuzzies. There is a long list of folks out there that when you have something to say they deem negative about some fellow or lines, well they have a hair trigger just waiting to pull it with vigor, without regard to the truth or history. It is because of some other motive or cause.
I understand you are not doing this but, for some reason some people see or in your case, think that others see the failure or success of a breeding, dog or a single dog or pup as a reflection of the entire line, their own or others worth or ability as a dog man or the worth of a breed or line. That just shouldn't be the case. Every breeder has culls and makes mistakes. Then with some breedings, a feller has some luck and yes there are a few breeders who consistently produce pups with ability. But I would tell him, a mistake or two or quit proving them and he can loose it real quick. Breed for looks and see how long it takes to shipwreck what you had. Breed for bay pen dogs and see how long it takes to loose the find and track qualities in your dogs. Breed cow dogs to work in a 100-acre pasture where he can see the cattle, then go send him to find cattle in a 5,000 acre piney woods forest and see what happens.
 It’s all part of it, they are just dogs. I fail to understand why that fact is such a contentious thing among dog people. IF we all just told the truth and admitted to having culls, breeding for different things, likes and dislikes and dealt with it properly, we'd all get further down the road with fewer bruised egos and relationships. My dad always said.. Son the truth will always set you free.. So truth is truth, warm fuzzies or not.
Guarantees:
Pups fail, breedings fail to produce what is hoped for and expected, and many people / hunters fail. Sometimes it's impossible to know which is the case. I can understand why some folks don’t offer guarantees because often times, it is not the breeders or dogs fault. Sad truth is if someone gets a cull, they often wont go back and try again. They tend to judge the man and his dogs by one individual dog or because ole so in so said so. That may be a mistake on their part. I don’t know a good dog man, a long-term successful breeder that don’t have a bone yard they could burry a semi in. I know of a very few of the puppy folks who will admit it.
The year old guarantee thing would bother me,,, contrary to popular internet opinion and claims by the snake oil salesmen, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the vast majority of the time, it’s still guess work as to weather a dog will make it or not, in the woods ayway..
Me if I bought a pup, I wouldn’t expect a guarantee.. I’d do my homework on the man and his dogs and take my shot understanding full well the risk and or reward of my actions.. If I bought a started or finished dog, I’d go hunt with him. Not once but several times, every dog has good days and bad.

[Scott]

The year old guarantee thing would bother me,,, contrary to popular internet opinion and claims by the snake oil salesmen, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt the vast majority of the time, it’s still guess work as to weather a dog will make it or not, in the woods ayway..
Me if I bought a pup, I wouldn’t expect a guarantee.. I’d do my homework on the man and his dogs and take my shot understanding full well the risk and or reward of my actions.. If I bought a started or finished dog, I’d go hunt with him. Not once but several times, every dog has good days and bad.

Very good point, Skoal

[crackerc]

skoalbandit, you seem to have a very good grasp on the truth about dog breeding. I have had dogs a long time and I have yet to see ANY litter of dogs, where they all turned out to be exceptional dogs. I mean dogs I bred or anyone else's. There will always be dogs that are better than their littermates (even if they aren't top dogs). Now whether thats from breeding/training/different owners....who knows.

I 100% agree though, that if any guy sellling pups says he has never produced a cull...take your hard earned money and run away from him...fast.

Selling pups has been discussed several times on this board and I got some negative feedback because I sell my pups, when I have a litter, instead of giving them away. I see no reason why a man that has all the time and money invested in his dogs and breeding shouldn't be able to recoup some of his expenses. I raise a litter only every couple of years normally and always have a waiting list for pups. I have a list of guys wanting pups now and two are from this board.

However, that isn't reason enough for me to breed two dogs. I think this is the difference between someone who is raising dogs for money and someone who is raising them for themselves......I only raise a litter when I need dogs or when I find the right male and the right female for a cross I want to make and have to make it before I lose one of the dogs.

My JJ female (who is 6 years old) is in heat right now. I bred her to my Monkey dog once (her only litter) and those pups are 1 1/2 years old. Most are REAL rough and I am trying to breed in more bay and less rough so I won't make that cross again, unless the young dogs really turn around.

If I was just interested in selling pups, she would be in the pen with Monkey now as I sure wouldn't have any trouble selling the pups.

I didn't mean to hi-jack the thread, just saw where there was a lot of discussion about pups and money and thought I would throw in my viewpoint since I do sell my pups.

To me , selling pups isn't by itself a bad thing...but if you sell 100 pups a year........hmmmmm

[dgdawsonBMCs]

No reason a man can't sell a few pups...as long as he is proving the dogs he could be able to sell a few litters and no harm done (imho)...It is when you start breeding dogs that haven't been proven to make the money....A sign to me is when someone always has pups for sale using his different stud dogs....I mean how many people have multiple stud dogs that they all think are the same?  

[crackerc]

I will tell you from 30 years experience raising dogs that a top performing, prepotent male dog that consistently produces dogs that are as good or better then he is, is as scarce as hens teeth......and a female that fits the above is even harder to find.

And gentlemen thats a fact that NO true dog breeder will ever deny........

I am always looking for a top male cur dog to breed to, have hunted with dozens and 99% of the time I am dissapointed in what other guys "think" are really good dogs. Problem as I see it is, they have no idea what a good dog really is. Of course, my opinion is different than many I am sure, but I want a dog that will hunt, find, bay and keep bayed a hog by himself, with NO help and do it consistently.  Its amazing how few dogs there are out there  (percentage wise) that can do that....let alone produce it!

[skoalbandett]

I will tell you from 30 years experience raising dogs that a top performing, prepotent male dog that consistently produces dogs that are as good or better then he is, is as scarce as hens teeth......and a female that fits the above is even harder to find.

And gentlemen thats a fact that NO true dog breeder will ever deny........

I am always looking for a top male cur dog to breed to, have hunted with dozens and 99% of the time I am dissapointed in what other guys "think" are really good dogs. Problem as I see it is, they have no idea what a good dog really is. Of course, my opinion is different than many I am sure, but I want a dog that will hunt, find, bay and keep bayed a hog by himself, with NO help and do it consistently.  Its amazing how few dogs there are out there  (percentage wise) that can do that....let alone produce it!

I couldn’t agree more Cracker..
If a man gets to own just one in his lifetime of as you say  “ top performing, proponent male dog that consistently produces dogs that are as good or better then he is “ he can count his lucky stars. That combination of talent and ability in the woods and breeding shed is truly rare. My family and I have been consistently using, hunting and raising cur dogs for nearly 40 years and I can basically count on one hand the one’s I have seen. But you know what, that same principle is true with many animals, Race horses, using horses even show cattle. That is just the way it is. As well bred as they may be, as well as a man may plan it, I am of the opinion when it dose happen; they are freaks they are so rare.

That problem of folks definition of “Good” is something I am very aware of and have brought up many times, it truly is all over the board. If interested in a man’s statement for some reason or for his own use, it’s dang wise to investigate the man making the statement as to his knowledge, ability, honesty and motive. I mean, If I am interested for some reason, want a pup or want to breed to a dog, let me see his definition of good at work, see if works for me.

Cracker, I see nothing wrong with a man selling pups or dogs.. It just depends on the man, his motive and the situation. A man doing what you say you are, I totally understand it. It’s when the small or large puppy mill folks, snake oil salesmen with all the false claim, lies, deception and promises about a pup come into play is when I have a problem with it. I haven’t ever sold pups but if I did and even with the ones I give away, I tell them, I don’t know if that pup with be worth a flip or not. He could or should be at least decent if given the opportunity. His mom and dad are, (we don’t breed unproven dogs) But a man don’t really even know till he sees the finished product.  I tell them we get some culls and one of our own pups could be culled any time along the way to becoming a finished dog for any number of reasons. I also tell them to forget about the 9 month old “super dog” because contrary to what many say, they aren’t gona be finished at 1 ½ or 2 years old, not a hog dog or cow dog anyway. You just have to know what you are looking at when you see it and judge accordingly all along the way. You have to hunt them and expose them consistently; there are no short cuts.  Best thing, when you go to the woods with one, don’t see and concentrate on the 2 good things you see, watch, see and acknowledge the 20 bad things you see, expect them, react to them and deal with them.


If a man wants to know if he probably has a good dog, I totally agree with a statement you made and it is something we do with every dog at some point.  The final test is… send him by himself, go see if he can consistently find, track, stop, bay and hold a hog by himself… Key word is consistently. Till then I call him decent or pack dogs if they made it that far.

Just my opinion

[Yeller]

There's some good & factual righting here that made me think about the post I made about a nine month WB dog that I have that has a natural ability to find hogs but I want to clarify that he's not a finished dog and has alot to learn where we hunt they run bad so We'll see

[crackerc]

skoalbandit, I think you and I are on the same page about dog breeding. I never breed a dog that doesn't perform in the woods and often times I won't even breed a dog until they are 4-5 years old. I want to see what the dog is capable of, what its faults are, etc so I can try to breed to a dog that "hopefully" can help correct what I don't like (i.e. if a dog is hot nosed I will usually breed to a dog with a better nose hoping the pups will have better noses).

Of course, it rarely works out this way, but thats dog breeding!! But I don't have "brood" females and I don't breed unproven dogs.

I hunt one dog a lot of times, or one old dog and one young dog. Right now my Monkey dog is my main dog, as my JJ female got her bottom jaw broke and I just never got my Red female back in shape from having her first litter of pups 9 months ago. She got a tendon cut in her front leg a few years back and gets gimpy after a day of hunting, so I don't push her. Both of these females were hunted pretty hard the first 4-5 years. They turned 6 years old last Oct (they are littermates). Each has had one litter and I am just waiting to see how the pups turn out.

The old Dixie female I have suited me better than any dog I have ever hunted with. She was just the complete package. Unfortunately she got cancer, had to be spayed, and I never got a pup from her. I would have loved to have had a litter of pups from her, just to see if she could produce anything close to her.

I agree that a GOOD dog is open to opinion, but if you have a top dog, I feel he should be able to hunt, find, stop, bay and keep a hog bayed alone...consistently....or to me, he isn't a top dog.

You will NEVER see me with 4-5 of my dogs on the ground...ever. I want to know what dog is finding the hogs, so I hunt 1-2 dogs max. That way I know who is doing a good job.... and who is screwing up!!