Gift or Check

[skoalbandett]

 was talking to a friend of mine about some dog problems he was having on the phone the other night and he ask me something that I have thought about many times.

His question was:

How many dogs or pups that ended up making “ Good dogs “ have you ever had that you bought or dogs that actually proved to be good dogs that someone else bought”? He said, I ain’t talking lip service, ego’s, snake oil salesmen and bias here, I am taking proven fact in the woods as judged by piers 

As the conversation went on h is point was, he went on to say, nearly every one of the good ones he has had were either given to him by a friend who was, a good hunter, a good breeder or came from dogs he himself raised that came from good pups or dogs given to him at some point in time. Every one of those people were not people who breed dogs to sell, they are hunters first and breed for their own use or for a few friends. He credits the people who gave him pup, dogs and guided him with truth for much of his success.
Now I understand his definition of what good is and that’s important to consider when you talking to someone. That definition always plays into anybody’s answer, opinion and that definition sure varies with people. I’d say his definition and mine are pretty well along the same lines when it comes to performance. Not saying perfection but well bred, thoroughly proven, solid, honest dogs with brains, lots of try, hunt and ability that can consistently get the job done alone in all kinds of conditions and environment. Those accepted and judged by piers as good ones using like criteria. Now, of those dogs the ones that end up making it then reproducing it with any decent percentages or consistency is a whole other subject.
After he hung up I got to thinking about this and to the best of my memory, I have never bought a dog or pup that ended up a good one and have seen very few other people who have bought one that ended up a good one either. If they did, it was one or two out of many dogs and sometimes many years of trying. Yes a few get lucky and think they found the secret or the right breed, line or man. It may take years to find out and prove. I thought about people I have known, hunted with. That theme rang true so many times when I went right down the list in my mind of a bunch of folks I know and have hunted with. More of the same with very few exceptions. Time after time, their good ones were given to them or raised by them from dogs given to them at some point in time.
I am not saying there is anything wrong with selling dogs the right way and I know there are some good honest people out there, (However I doubt many of the honest one’s are mainly focused on the dollars generated by the dog and puppy selling business.) Not a thing wrong with making money but there is a right and wrong way to do it, moral and ethical way to do to, to many compromise truths, practice deception and fail to tell the whole truth to accomplish it, especially in the hunting / using dog world. I am not saying it is impossible to buy one that ends up making good dog, I have seen it done. I am saying motive can make a world of difference in the end and that seems to ring true with many of us who have been fortunate at some point in our lives to be given the best potential a man has to offer. Those pups or dog were not for sale and how often that seems to be the case through the years with so many people.
I understand there are exceptions and plenty of claims of exceptions. But of all these pups, started dogs and prospects that we see pictures of and claims made about that are for sale, It might be interesting to see what happens to each and every one of them two years down the road. See what and where they are at that time and what they became. Yes I said see it, I found out long time ago to listen with my eyes and just how wide ranging the definition of “ Good” is when it comes to claims made by some folks.
I guess I came down to this in my thinking about dogs, it’s dang hard to buy what a good man with good dogs will consider giving you if you prove you got what it takes for him to consider doing that, if he wants to and he has it available to offer. Heck just pick your top hunters, look around and try to buy his proven good dog. While ya at it, take the banker with ya, you’ll need him. Try to buy pups out of his most proven and outstanding good gyp. They probably aren’t for sale or at best you will hear they are all spoken for. So what’s normally for sale? Potential complete with a story a big part of the time.
I am sure that is not everyone’s experience and I am sure others have a different story but I agree with my friends thoughts on the subject as the norm. Just thought the story was worth sharing, might make some folks think and consider about how they go about all of this trying to get good dogs, especially when it comes to buying a pup or prospect.

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Sir your thoughts and comments are so true. My dogs got started by men that had raised their on dogs for years.I tried for a long time to get dogs from them. But it took them trusting me and getting to know me. They had to (in their mines) besure that I was going to take care of and maintian the breed as they did.And over the years I have done the same. I dont and will never raise dogs just for the money.I dont need it that bad.I breed when I need to. I have one of my young females breed wright now, the only reason is I want to see if the cross is good enought to meet my standers.There may not be any of them make it.Like I said I feel that what you have said is so true. Thanks

[catchrcall]

when i started out not long ago, I bought two strike dogs and a catch dog from a fellow east of troy, and they have proven to be good dogs.  He was getting rid of his shorter range stuff, and that happened to be what I was looking for.  I thought it was a good deal all around, the dogs are exactly as he described, and they are in my opinion, good dogs.  I don't know about how they would have reproduced, because I've had them spayed or neutered.

[Circle C]

Sloalbandett and Rockin-P-Ranch,

   I can sure appreciate what y'all are saying, but I have a question for y'all.  Have either of y'all ever sold a "good dog"?  I am talking about for any reason, too many dogs, helping someone get started, financial hardship, or it just plain didn't hunt the way you liked, yet it was still a good dog?


   I own a couple of dogs that I think are good dogs, and I bought them. As a matter of fact, I would say that most people who have hunted behind one in particular would agree that she is a good dog, and are not blowing smoke about it. I am sure there are plenty of better dogs out there than her, I just haven't had the chance to hunt behind very many of them. She's just a good honest dog that you can count on. Though I guess it's possible that my standards aren't very high either.

[dabutcher]

i can think of 2 out of 14 dogs that i bought that have turned out. one of which was actually bought from Circle C not by me but a family member.  he was a good dog, only fault was he was a little too gritty for me.   i've got one that was given to me and she is gonna be a good dog, and another that was given to me at a discount and he for sure is gonna turn out with a little more hunting time.

[skoalbandett]

Circle C
 I will do my best to explain myself and answer your question but I will apologize in advance because I don’t know how to do that in one paragraph. But you seem like a good feller and I want to give you as honest and full answer as I can, I. May get tagged as nuts with my answer but. Oh well. It’s me. lol

No I have never sold what I call a good dog, nor have I sold a sorry one, nor have I sold any of these dogs or pups for that matter. Almost did once but, decided against it.... For one thing, a dog I would call a truly good one is special and hard to come by. Decent dogs and pack dogs come along pretty often but those good ones are pretty rare in my opinion. I don’t know, call me nuts or crazy, but to me a sure nuff good dog is and should be all but priceless. By the time he reaches that status around here we have spent many many hours with him in the woods and typically built up a relationship and respect for one another that I think both the dog and I understand and in fact cherish. Yes sir, I have shed a tear more than one time when a good one got killed, but I never owned a dog to good to hunt or use. They all get used.  I wouldn’t know how to put a price on that. Would I sell one if I got in a situation where I had to? Yes sir I guess I would, but it would be a sad day for me and have to be a case of " no Choice" or to feed my family.

It’s just me and how I feel about these dogs. You see, I don’t know how many folks know the history of these BMC dogs and how important they were and still are to some people who not only use them but also needed them.  The East Texas Big Thicket area, Texas in general, the Spanish and Settlers trying to survive, the hunters, the ranchers working, driving and penning cattle and hogs, the history of grazing, working and gathering cattle and hogs on free range, Farmers and Ranchers all over Texas, New Mexico and Oklahoma would not be the same without the BMC dog stamping their mark in that history. The better kind of BMC dogs seem to revolve around a” culture” or a type of individual and for the most part still dose today.  BMC stock dogs were a key element of that  “culture” which not only existed in history but lives on in the lives of many today. Our forefathers needed and we still need a stock dog who can and will do his job in a style and with characteristics that was and is necessary for the job, and one I believe is the best way. . A lot of effort was and is put into that and still is today in keeping those characteristics and style alive, It was and is no accident or just a happening...  If a man hasn’t lived or understands that culture, it will make no sense to him. If a man understands, it needs no description. I do not know many good BMC stock dog breeders today who were not ranchers or cowboys who bred, used and proved their dogs and continued to do it each and every year, day after day. Breeding tree dogs into em to make tree dogs out of em ruined a many of them when it comes to the right kind of stock dogs. That’s just a fact.

We don’t even charge a board bill to our good friends to breed a good gyp to a dog or to breed a good gyp for someone if we respect them, their pedigrees and their program. Yes, I may or may not want a pup from the breeding it depends on several things and the timing. Just proud to have the opportunity to breed a litter out of a proven good gyp and dog who ever owns it. As I said, I never have sold dogs or pups. I would rather give them to someone who needs em that I think is worthy, one who will do them right or use em or cull em.  We have given dogs and pups away and culled lots of em over the years. We have given some away as pups that made good dogs and I have given some dogs away that we started or hunted that were pretty dang nice dogs, some got better and eventually turned into what I would call a good dogs. But most of those typically may not be quite what we wanted to use breeding for one reason or another or we just didn’t need them in the breeding program or need them to use at that time. We enjoy giving ranchers and cowboys dogs that need them, those typically are men who live, respect and understand the culture I speak of.  At some point, we don’t end up keeping dogs that we wont breed. I just never wanted to keep a whole side of a hill full of dogs.
Now I have sold some good horses, I always looked at them different than I did my dogs.  I always considered that a hobby and a business. My dogs have always been something else to me. To me, Giving a man or boy the right kind of BMC dog to me is like an old man passing his pocket knife down to a grandson or his homestead to his family or his pocket watch to his son or befriending a young man, giving of his time and wisdom to a young man trying to learn or helping a friend in need.  I don’t know how to price that.
So we hunt 2 or 3 times a week, work hard at keeping them as straight and solid as the day we found em 40 years ago, improving them within with like kind through selection, proving them with plenty of exposure and honest unemotional assessments, culling and breeding the best we can and working to pass them on to those that understand the culture and history or are trying to understand it. All I can say is, I didn’t pay for them and thank God for the men that came before me with the need, vision and insight to breed these dogs, keep em straight and right, and to understand and to teach me so that I understood what these dogs were, are and need to be.  They get any credit deserved or earned.

[Wmwendler]

"The better kind of BMC dogs seem to revolve around a” culture” or a type of individual and for the most part still dose today.  BMC stock dogs were a key element of that  “culture” which not only existed in history but lives on in the lives of many today."

"If a man hasn’t lived or understands that culture, it will make no sense to him. If a man understands, it needs no description."

Its that Culture that is a big part of what makes these dogs special to me because I am proud to be a small part of it and have a strong desire to preserve this cutlure.  I've seen situations where a man had a string of bad luck and just about lost his whole pack; a few to hogs, or snake bites, and the rest getting shot by idiots.  Dogs he's spent a good part of his life putting together, but part of the culture is stepping in and helping a man in a situation like that get some dogs, and pups or young dogs are given to him, even grown dogs given to him.  But you can bet that man will do the same for his peers in the future and might have allready done it in the past.  Its part of the culture and what makes it so special to me.  You give away pups and you get pups its what keeps bloodlines fresh and each partner has the reasurance of knowing that his breeding is outthere to bring back to his yard for future breeding if need be.  A man does not need a hillside covered with dogs in a system like that.

Skoal......I have sold one dog over the years and it kind of went against my way of thinking, but she did not suit me like i wanted.  And I do not have the space to personally keep more than a few dogs, which is another story it has worked out good finacially and in consideration of my college education, but is not such a good thing for my preference of where I live and how many dogs I can keep. .  Basically I live in the City and it sucks.  However, I knew she was a good dog so I chose to sell her.  She has since made a good dog for the person I sold her too which is proven by the fact that she is still in his yard and probly not going anywhere.  But I was honest about the deal and about the dog, and sold at a fair price in my mind.  I did not have to have the money but I did need the money at the time or else I would have looked at rolocating her some other way.  Selling dogs is not neccesarily a bad thing when the dog is going outside of your peers and buys you hunt,work and trade dogs with.  Sometimes the price is about recouping what you have invested in the dog and the buyer knows if the dog is really what its claimed to be then the price is fair to them as well because they know it would cost that much to raise a dog and get it to the same point, not even considering time spent.

That said I do see what you are saying in your original post.  I have never bought a dog and can't see my self doing it unless I got a wild hair and bought a catch dog for some reason or another.

Waylon

[Circle C]

Skoalbandett,

    Thanks for taking the time to respond.  I find it interesting to see how and why different people, that use their dogs for similar tasks, do what they do. Including the $$$ side of things.
 
I personally don't have a passion for a specific breed of dog, but I can appreciate those that do and the effort they put into the preservation of their breed of choice. On my end, I have never lived the life of a working cowboy, or any other capacity that requires a good dog. In my life, dogs are a preferred luxury. Something that I want, definitely not something that I need. Though the few times a year that I help gather cattle, or the random occasion that I am needed in helping find cattle, I can certainly appreciate the need for a good cur dog. Now, my free time is spent hunting hogs, and for the most part, I am in it to catch hogs. Sure I appreciate seeing a good dog do what it is trained to do, but truth be told, my goal is to catch hogs with dogs, not produce hogs dogs, just hogs. Based on that, I have no preference toward any breed, just a "type" that I prefer. Heck, I am guilty of grouping all curs together, and I have the same expectations, regardless of their coat or eye color.

With regard to your giving of pups, that is something that I can appreciate. I have a way of handling my business that works for me. Whether it's people asking for hogs, pups, or most anything else.  If you need it, you can have it. If you want it, you can pay for it.  Here's an example. I get people all the time asking for hogs to put on the bbq. If they live in a 600k house, they can pay me $50.00  for a hog to bbq, but if they are living check to check, and just need some extra meat for their family, they can have any hog I catch for free.  I would do the same with pups, if I knew of someone that needed a good pup to get started, I would have no problem sending one their way free of charge. Now, I have sold some dogs, probably a half dozen or so, and I have given away many more than that. I feel that I can honestly say I have never profited on a hog dog.

For the sake of your preservation of working BMC's, I hope you are able to find some solid young men to learn from you, and that they have the same passion for the breed that you do. Otherwise, they will just end up like too many other breeds or lines. Profit motivated, and lacking in the quality department.

Thanks again for taking the time to type a thorough answer to my question.

Chris

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Chris no I thank you for putting this out there And the other guys that posted on this thread. I hope some of the younger guys that read all of it and not just part  of it. You guys put it better than I ever could.  It is a culture and away of live. Hope this is clear as mud.

[skoalbandett]

Waylon,,

Don’t get me wrong.. I am not preaching against selling or buying a dog a pup. There are honorable ethical and moral ways to go about that. I know there are a few honest folks out there but more than a few who aren't. . Selling dogs is just not something that I have practiced for  the reasons stated above.
I would agree with you, to buy a dog or pup a man needs to do his homework properly and do his due diligence then pull the trigger one way or another. I would be the same way and have, No way would I ever buy a started or finished dog without doing my homework and due diligence as well as trying the dog, not once but several times.  Any dog can have a good day or bad, besides I judge dogs by patterns, not any one thing usually.  If I did, I would understand and expect, I own him whatever the results. If ever chose to sell one, it wouldn’t be without them doing the same things I would do and having the same opportunity. I'd tell them, listen with their eyes. Listen with their ears to nothing. . Because when they left with him, they'd own him.
A discussion for what that homework and due diligence is or should be, might be a good subject for someone to start sometime.

I’d be the same way selling pups, you own him when you leave.  That I think is the fairest for all concerned, buyer and seller. Same thing should apply, buyer should do his homework and due diligence before he pulls the trigger and not listen to a nothing with his ears.
Tell me what guarantee is really fair to seller as well as the buyer besides that.  I mean I have seen that discussion on forums, some on here recently and haven’t seen one that I thought was really fair to all concerned other than you leave with him, you own him. Take them one at a time, investigate it, think about each one, break it down, look for the angle and put yourself in first the buyers shoes then the sellers shoes. I realize some appeared to be fair and sounded good at first but as I thought about them, or in some cases knew for a fact it was not the truth or the whole story was not told, each one I felt was slanted one way or the other or full of holes. Don’t forget the seller can get the shaft just as easy as the buyer can many times .
I’d rather not comment too much about some of the recent guarantees I saw presented as forthright, fair and honest, someone will get angry.