Baying style - Learned or geneticly determined

[Cull Buck]

I've heard many times and common sense wants me to agree with thought that if you work a young dog with rough or catchy dogs it will turn out to be the same.  The flip side is if you work the dog with looser baying dogs it will learn to be looser baying. 

That all makes sense in my mind but the longer I'm around the sport of hog dogging, I'm starting to think this line of thinking is more of a myth than a fact and that dogs are genetically predetermined to be loose or rough and outside influences have little to do with it.  I can look at my own yard to find a prime example this.  I have a gyp that is a loose as they come but her whole life she was raised with some rough SOB's.  Never once did they get her to change her baying style.  Some of this dogs litter mates are rough as heck but not some of the others.  In this case, she is genetically pre-determined to be loose in my opinion.

So what do y'all think?  Is this line of thinking fact or fiction? Or is this maybe something that should be viewed on a case by case basis?

I understand that some dogs can "talk" other dogs into roughing up a hog but what I'm talking about is what has the dog actually learned that will carry over on to other hunts. 

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

 I tend to beleive just as you. But I have seen a strick/bay go to being a head on catch.ktchemwcurs has a full litter mate brother to two of my females. He has been on hogs about 6 months longer than they have. He was running him with some pretty catchy dogs and now that is all he wants to do. Now with that said Tess Sunday ran in and tryed to catch. And paid the price for it.So Im thincking that catch is on their mind all the time but just waiting on the right time. It is a hard thing to figure out aint it???

[Bryant]

I believe a dog can be influenced, but just like with overall hunting drive I feel that a dogs baying style is 99% inherited.  That's why the key players in the competition bay-pen world command top dollar for their stock.

In my opinion, when you first start pups in a pen you'll know fairly quickly what your looking at.

[uglydog]

another nature vs. nuture issue

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

I personally relate it to human siblings.  Some brothers want to fight everything around, while others in the same family would rather talk things out.  IMO grit, catchyness, what ever you want to refer to the trait as, is genetic.  With the right breeding process you can stack the cards in your favor to the method that suites you best.  JMO!!!!!!!

[3-Bdogs]

i believe its genetics or at least the majority i mean there is always a exception but you don't hear people say well that dog sucks and so does his bloodline im goin to breed him JMO

[Cull Buck]

Thanks for the input everyone.  I'm happy to see I'm not the only one seeing it this way.  Genetics is the king when it comes to traits....drive, hunt, bottom, baying style, grit, ect. 

another nature vs. nuture issue

I'm not sure I know what this means.   Would you care to expand on this?  If not, I understand.

[uglydog]

Nature = breeding, bloodlines, genetics
Nuture= enviroment, raised to be, trained to be, exposed to

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

Cull Buck you and I are going to have to get to town more. I didnt under stand either but I was not going to say anyhting.

[ktchemwcurs]

Whats up Cull!!!!Man this is a topic I love and is a dam9 good one. Just to share a little story. I have had dogs since I was 18 so thats been 22yrs of catching 200 plus hogs a year so if you figure that up, you would think a man should know dogs. I will tell you right now, I DON'T KNOW CHIT! I have dogs that was raised just to bay and be the grittiest SOB's in the woods. I got away from full blown catch dogs about 10 years ago and the other day I got one. Hunted him 5 times caught 14 hogs and now I am selling him back to his owner. I just dont' like em. I have hunted puppies with loose dogs until they get around 1yr and they will still try to catch. What I have found out is I just hunt maybe 1 or 2 on the ground(BMC'S) and when they find and bay, then I let another two go(BMC's) 9 chances out of 10 the hog will be caught by the time I get there. If not I can start hissing them on and they will catch. So I don't know if it is genetics or if it is just how a dog is raised????Sorry, wasnt much help!

[Doggie]

Watch the movie trading places with Eddie Murphy and Dan Akroid.  If that doesn't help you understand the concept of Nature vs. Nurture, it will at least make you laugh. 

[Clay]

I believe it is in the breeding but if you nurture a dog to be rough he would be rougher or the other way. I believe the way they are raised and hunted do influince it but dosnt determine it if that makes sense ...JMO

[Cull Buck]

I have dogs that was raised just to bay and be the grittiest SOB's in the woods. I have hunted puppies with loose dogs until they get around 1yr and they will still try to catch. What I have found out is I just hunt maybe 1 or 2 on the ground(BMC'S) and when they find and bay, then I let another two go(BMC's) 9 chances out of 10 the hog will be caught by the time I get there. If not I can start hissing them on and they will catch. So I don't know if it is genetics or if it is just how a dog is raised????Sorry, wasnt much help!

That was actually a lot of help.  It sounds like you tried to overpower nature thru nuture to get a looser baying dog but ultimately you failed because nature (genetic traits) took over.  Sounds about like what the rest of us have experienced.

[WAARHEID]

As a species, all dogs are catch dogs.

The default canid setting at the end of the predatory cycle is: Catch/Kill/Eviscerate

In the literature it is properly referred to as: Orient, Eye, Stalk, Chase, Grab-bite, Kill-bite, Dissect

The domestication of dogs changed that. Selective breeding has since changed it even further. It's why a pointer points, a collie gives a hard-eye, a bay dog bays, and some strike dogs will work a track until they get there and then roll out to find the next track (they're genetically locked in the "orient" phase, that wouldn't happen in nature, we breed that into the dog)... these are all examples of different elements of the "seven steps" of the canine predatory behavior cycle being modified/stunted/exaggerated by selective breeding.

For more info on nature/nurture debate in working dogs and the canine predatory behavior cycle check out Dr Coppinger's work.

[Noah]

I'd like to believe that with enough training, you could change baying style.... just haven't been able to achieve it yet  

From what I've seen, a dog is gonna turn out how they're genetically predisposed to turn out.... no matter what you do.

They're gonna be what they're gonna be, if you put them on enough hogs.


Got to see a couple 6 mnth old, old line of Fl cur(cow dog stock) started on a hog the other day.... coolest thing I've ever seen... these pups had never been out of a pen, when we put 'em in a cow pen with a 40# shoat, they sat the hog down then went to circling like a veteran cow dog.... thought they were gonna wear a groove in the ground! 

If that ain't genetic predisposed baying style.... I don't know what is.

[BOBDOG]

I love seeing stuff like that! Did you get ya one of those pups?

[Eric]

Both... as with most other things.

[Noah]

I love seeing stuff like that! Did you get ya one of those pups?

Naw... I'm sure they'll make fine cow dogs... but too short legged to make my type of hog dog...

[make-em-squeel]

I personally own a dog who was a gritty youngster but running him with more finesse type non-gritty dogs he has adapted and isnt gritty any more. I have also seen alot of people in the baypen world back up catchy dogs with work in a professional baypen where they could rotate 6 different hogs. Alot of dogs can learn o do what you want them to do.

I think line breeding will re create traits, catchy or loose etc. thats why people line breed. I watch yellowdog (bob cox) breed rough hunting dogs with almost every litter you will know what your going to get.

I dont think breeding good dog to good dog or gritty dog to gritty dog will consistantly give you what you are looking for because you will get the traits of there grandparents etc.

[djhogdogger]

I have to say genetics...we have two dogs that are hunting buddies. They have always hunted together and one of them is rough as a cob, he will try a hog and has the scars to prove it, and the other one bays loose, has been on lots of hogs and only has one tiny scar that wasn't even a cut but a bite mark.