cross breeding dogs with bird dogs.

[spazhogdog]

I have been reading alot about crossing bird dogs with curs, and cats.  If one is trying to get the nose and drive of the bird dog, is it better to have the stud dog the bird or should it be the gyp.  Do you feel both parents influence the pups the same or is one of them more dominent  in producing certain traits in pups?

[TexasJ]

I'm not 100% sure but I think somebody told me once that in dogs, 60% passes from the gyp and 40% passes from the stud.

Probably some of the others on here might have better detailed input...

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

50/50

Some individuals are better at throwing their likeness, but both parents contribute 50% of what makes up a pup.  Either way you go with it, make sure both parents have the hunt and desire you would like to see in future pups.

[Bryant]

Each parent provides 50% of the genetic makeup (39 chromosomes) but in my PERSONAL opinion, the female has a stronger influence on what the end product will be.  This is assuming the hypothetical scenario that both sire and dam are equally proven producers.  This OPINION is widely shared across the equine community as well.

Heard many an 'old timer over the years say a good male dog will make you famous, but a good bitch will keep you that way.

[uglydog]

I am in agreeance with female being very important, however you have to consider what the genetics throwing back to grandparents and great grandparents from either dog involved in the breeding.
I used the EP female in my breeding, and a Ugly Chuppacabra UglyDog as the sire.
Because my dogs are ugly and the EP a very pretty dog, it was easy to see that some pups took on physical charistics of ugly parent and the temperment/personality and hustle of the birdog. Some of those same pups in the litter were way uglier than the father, or grandfather.
Some of the pups came out slick haired with both Charistic combinations of temperments, and some were slick and more calm relaxed like the father, took some of his hunting style too.
So I don't think you can look at the pups and decide which will be your "hustling banchi" or which ones will better trailing dogs, physical appearance won't tell you squat when you are mixing the "Types" of dogs (cur vs. pointing). I have kept up with the entire litter, all 7  and know what each is doing to this day, only 3 left out of 7,

[make-em-squeel]

Not sure the best answer to you ?, but mine had a bmc mom and ep dad- he is doing well. His sister was culled by joe but a few others in the litter are making a hand as well.

[parker]

were fooling  with animals  that  have  multiple offspring at a  time ....... with that the only way  to cross and  get a  truer  representation of the two is with line bred  parents ..... next  each litter  can or could throw leaning  to  either  side  or a  cross  between the  2 ..... i been breeding  dogs  for  years .....all this  % stuff  gets  threw  out the  window  in my  opinion with  dogs  crossed ....


i also  believe  line  bred  dogs  will  throw more  of a  likeness  to  themseleves (bloodline) nomatter  male  or  female .......

[Hog Dog Mike]

I have owned alot of bird dogs in my life (well over 200). Some dogs are more prepotent than other dogs. There is a guy named Frank Thompson that did a study and what he measured was the number of winners produced compared to total number of offspring. Some dogs produced many winners but were bred to anything that would hold still.

The male has an x cromosome and the female a y and a xy cromosome. A genitic expert doctor told me that the famale definitely puts more into a pup than the male. The horse folks have said that for years.

This is not to say that you can take a sorry male and breed him to a outstanding female and get good pups and vice versa. I had the best luck breeding an outstanding female from a line of dogs known for producing outstanding dogs to the best male I could find.

Some blood does not mix well and I do not know why. There was a great dog named the Kansas Wind that won double digit open championships and NEVER produced anything. A dog named Jumper Jim that never won a championship produced a dog that won more open championships that any dog in history at the time. He could produce great dogs and that was just a fact.

If you can find a repeat mating of a breeding that has produced good dogs you cannot go wrong. Some say that a male cannot produce as well in their older age.

In bird dog terminology a great producing female is called a "blue hen". They can produce bred to almost anything. A great female named Hot Haunches produced champions in six different litters bred to six different males.

Alot of folks hunt their good females and breed the sorry ones which is bass akwards of what they should be doing. Give me a pup out of a blue hen any day over anything else.

[spazhogdog]

If you can find a repeat mating of a breeding that has produced good dogs you cannot go wrong. Some say that a male cannot produce as well in their older age.

I know in Thoroughbred, the older mares don't normally produce their best offspring when they are older. I am not for sure about the studs. but do you all think that holds true to gyps too? If so, what is prime breeding age and when should one quit  thinking about breeding?

[3-Bdogs]

Idk about age but i know one thing that happens all to often when breedin dogs ppl focuse to much on what they like in a dog and don't focus on what they don't want everytime i breed i look all the options that couldhappen that's why i think ppl have litters that don't produce anything good if you are breeding and a couple yrs go by and you haven't out produced the parents your not doin somethin right in my opinion

[parker]

well  you  can   get  a  100  different   opinions  on  breeding ....one  out  of  the  hundred  will be the  best  opinion for  getting the  best  consistant  resullts .....


good  luck everyone .....

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Heard many an 'old timer over the years say a good male dog will make you famous, but a good bitch will keep you that way.

x2

The guys i have known who ever bred aby type of working/hunting dog agreed with that line of thinking.They would sell a few male pups but kept there females back for themselves. I always wanted to try one of those bird dog/bull dog crosses but never did

[parker]

my  opinion  i crossed  to  a  birddog  as a   project to  play  with .......i  think they will  do  well .... and  may  add  more  speed  than  what  i  have  .....but  far  as  hunting  or  nose ....NO ......i look  at a  birddog  as a  working  dog ....... what  i  have  now will  out  hunt a  birddog ,,,,,,running  wildly all  over  is  not  what  i call hunting  its  more  working ........ takeing a  track   several  hours  old  and  tracking  the  animal  up is  hunting ...... or a  dog that  will  loop  in a  quarter  mile or  so  looking  for  sign then trailing  it  up  is  hunting .....it  is  gonna  take  hound  type  traits  for  this ....  i picked the  german  shorthair  because  they seem  to  trail  more  on the ground  than  wind ..... if  this  works  out i am  looking  for  more  speed and a  dog  that  is  just  as  eager to  come  out the  box  at the  end  of a  long  day....also  i wanted  something  that was  extremely  line  bred ....( NO THROW BACKS ) ....   i  have  all the hunt  i  would  want  already ........



 

[uglydog]

Parker, I agree with you alot about the hunting verses working and bringing the speed.
The dogs in my yard that I use are not that cold trailing type, but would trail hot tracks, wind pretty well, enough to use for rigging, and well they are just what I like and thats why I kept breeding to provide myself with what I like. The EP I got, would trail some but was much better at "running full blast, and stopping in her tracks when she hit scent and them would trail from there. However the speed got her on top of a track much faster, therefore the speed was puttingher ontop of hogs much faster than most of my curs, and she was out finding the hogs, only because of the speed. I would say she had alot of heart and never wanted to quit hunting, she would blow past me in the woods on the sides of her feet because the skin was gone, the next layer of foot was gone, and she would leave bloodtrails from her feet bleeding, but NO QUIT. The reason I would not use the EP exclusively is that when it comes to baying and holding the hog, she lacked what my curs "stock type" dogs bring to the hunt.
THe pointer bred to "HOLD" point would not move her feet enough, she would Bark her fool head off, and I guess most folks consider that baying, but to "bay" I like a dog that knows when to stand still and not make a hog nervous, and one that knows by moving and quartering to and fro, will keep the hog nervous enough to stand and stay put, a dog needs to be able to do what it takes (thats awhole other subject) but the Birdie dog would let a hog run smooth over the top of her, she was very smart and was able to learn some degree and got better with experience in the woods. My point being its in her DNA to point.
I would be interested in hearing back from you the updates on the pups and what you find and your opinions on the cross, PLEASE Sir.

[make-em-squeel]

were fooling  with animals  that  have  multiple offspring at a  time ....... with that the only way  to cross and  get a  truer  representation of the two is with line bred  parents ..... next  each litter  can or could throw leaning  to  either  side  or a  cross  between the  2 ..... i been breeding  dogs  for  years .....all this  % stuff  gets  threw  out the  window  in my  opinion with  dogs  crossed ....


i also  believe  line  bred  dogs  will  throw more  of a  likeness  to  themseleves (bloodline) nomatter  male  or  female .......

I agree 100%, the litter I got my pup from was an obvious outcross but both parents were line bred very tight.  Whats the saying "If i do it its line breeding, if you do it its in breeding"