? about Line Breeding

[Bryant]

Said it before, and I'll say it again...the purpose of linebreeding is to refine and add consistancy to what you start with...outcrossing is to add something else desired.  Outcrossing within a breeding program is also important for health reasons.

Breeding, whether it be linebreed, inbreed, outcrossing or whatever is the easy part.  Evaluating, culling and not lying to yourself about what your looking at is the hard part.  If the purpose of anyone's breeding is to produce dogs everyone will like, you will most likely fail.  If your goal is to produce dogs that you personally will be pleased with, there is no better way.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Breeding, whether it be linebreed, inbreed, outcrossing or whatever is the easy part.  Evaluating, culling and not lying to yourself about what your looking at is the hard part.  If the purpose of anyone's breeding is to produce dogs everyone will like, you will most likely fail.  If your goal is to produce dogs that you personally will be pleased with, there is no better way.

x2
That about sum's it up right there!

[Florida Curdog]

Thanks.

[Tcoots]

line breeding seems to be something to think about im breeding a full parker jip back to her daddy rowdy2 im going to see what happens should be some jam up pups

[make-em-squeel]

line breeding seems to be something to think about im breeding a full parker jip back to her daddy rowdy2 im going to see what happens should be some jam up pups

I know hoghunterdfw will buy one from you if he can. I am getting some line bred dogs that all trace back to the henry dog. He started the ben jordan stock dogs, ben jordan culled weatherford ben for being to gritty then mr wright got him and did exceptional marketing.....So I am basically getting a weatherford ben dog but i like the way the ones hunt that i am getting a pup out of.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

I thought a fella named bauman from or some thing like that had weatherfords ben and he sold him to Randy, his grandsire was a Jordan dog, but I could be wrong I was once.

I would really like to find some good info some yella dog bloodlines cause I really don't know to much, always had Catahoula's but realy like what Ihave see in the yella dogs I have been around better so I made the switch and aint looking back

[Peachcreek]

Do any of yall know if NALC has a problem registering pups from line breeding? I have been looking for a big 70-80lb catahoula gyp to breed my bad boy to but have had no luck getting one. I just had a litter in december and decided to keep my favorite gyp from the litter to line breed. She is 4 months and is just about as big as her mom now and has feet as big as my 75lb male.  the first time she laid eyes on a hog in the pin she was a bayin monster just as my male was at 4 months. i cant help but think she is a carbon copy of my male other than color. I plan on breeding if nalc doesnt have a big problem with it. what yall think?

[Scott]

NALC is a registry...as long as both parents are NALC registered, they'll register the litter.

[DangerZone]

I'm farly new to hog dogs, But 18 months ago an old friend from TN.  that i trained bird dogs with some years ago wanted me to work with some pups. catahoula's and bmc's. so far these dogs are highly intelligent and i think i can train one to do anything in time...but i believe just as with pointer's some u can start at 4 weeks and be finished at 18 months and others seem stupid and worthless till their 2 years old,and their 4 years by the time u can hunt them, and some time they make the best champion dogs.....or breed champion pups....JMO

[make-em-squeel]

Yea some pups come on later than others with line breeding unless thats a trait your line breeding for, I just wanted the opinions on how close is line breeding to in-breeding HOWEVER line breeding increases your odds of consistant good dogs you can reproduce when yours die compared to good dog to good dog. thats my .02

[baycrazy]

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

[Reuben]

I was reading some old threads and had to comment on this one.

The closest form of inbreeding is when littermates brother and sister are bred together. This is probably one of the fastest ways to get a breeding program going as long as they have all the traits that you want. Grandsire/granddam should have the same traits and further back is even better.

Purebred animals have immune system issues due to a reduced genetic base. If you don't vaccinate or worm mongrels some will live to breed another day. This is evolution at work... Survival of the fittest as well as a wider genetic base.

Neglect worming or vaccinating your linebred/purebred pup and let's see how long it survives.... Part of the reason the pup won't live is the genetic base issue, that issue is due to keeping them looking and acting a certain way (puebred). We as humans breed these purebred pups specifically this way for our reasons, then, we will intervene to keep the pups alive by vaccinating and worming them. I reckon we can call this manipulating or interfering with mother nature/evolution, thus creating a higher percentage of dogs that depend on mankind for survival.

In my opinion linebreeding and inbreeding is the way to go to get the best possible pups for whatever your reasons or goals are and the fastest way to get there AS LONG AS WE SELECT THE RIGHT PUPS.
YOU JUST CAN'T HAVE YOUR ROSE COLORED GLASSES ON. Don't breed bootsie because she has two white socks even though she don't hunt but she sure is cute, and don't breed old blue because he has that perfect conformation and you know he doesn't hunt. If we breed dogs with these loose rules we will stumble and fail...

NEVER COMPRIMISE... Well never say never, Once I had two gyps and one got killed by a hog and the other died from heat exhaustion. That was the end of me saying never breed what I consider a cull. I had given a pup to a friend of mine. All he wanted was a jam up strike dog that could find hogs. I had tested her as a pup and she was rolling out at 3-4 months. I culled her because she was less than 40 pounds and wasn't very gritty.

Rather than going out and bringing in new blood we bred her to her grandfather and I kept the smallest female pup and she weighed about 45 pounds when grown and was very gritty. Took that gyp and bred her to her great grandsire and got good pups.

IN my opinion I would rather breed a lesser gyp from a good line than to outcross and lose what has been bred for for years. Parker says the same thing.

The most important thing about linebreeding and inbreeding is making the right selections...

In our minds eye, We have got to know what a good hog dog is before we start breeding hog dogs. NOT EVERYONE HAS THE SAME IDEA AS TO WHAT A GOOD HOGDOG IS...

Most dog folks are not in it for the money. They would rather give a good pup away to someone who will appreciate a good pup, or just sell to cover some expenses.

SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO GO FORWARD...

[M Bennet]

you can do it, i do and i have bred brother and sister 1 time, and then breed dad to daughter , mother to son. i raised fighting chickens and thats how we kept the blood the same for 24 years.

[uglydog]

Although I have made some tight breeding in te same gene pool. thee are some some varying opinions out on the internet if you wanted to read, some I find disturbing others simplify the definitions, here are some links

http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~Marge_S_2/nonframes/inbreeding.htm


http://www.kirbymountainkennels.com/Articles/practices.html

yall gotta read this one
http://www.miniature-schnauzer-australia.com/line_breeding_dogs.html

[BigAinaBuilt]

Great reads UglyDog! Thanks for posting them up!

[Reuben]

Does anyone know how much outcrossing, linebreeding or even inbreeding is generally found in the wolf or coyote population?

I suspect there is a certain amount of linebreeding and maybe even some inbreeding. If this theory is true then how are the genetic faults kept to a minimum?  My gut feeling is that there is a certain amount of linebreeding/inbreeding but through evolution the faulty pups/cubs didn't make it and died off before they were old enough to breed, hence the cleansing of the species happened many centuries ago. My feeling is that this probably did happen and still is happening today and the wolf and the coyotes are doing just fine in the wild. If we can map out their pedigrees and cull the pups like mother nature culls the wolf and coyote then we could consistantly breed good dogs that look Identical and hunt alike just as the coyotes/wolves reproduce true to their species...

[TexasHogDogs]

Line breeding is noting but a tool , inbreeding is noting but a tool .  It is when people that don't understand how to use these tools things go wrong and sometimes in inbreeding still goes wrong with someone that knows what is going on .

Line breeding is breeding with in a family of dogs to keep the genetics and  traits going strong and also knowing what little outs to use to keep the traits of your family of dogs strong and right.

Inbreeding is done to try and capture certain gene pools of a certain dog are trying to recreate and ole dog n the back of the pedigree some were with inbreeding dogs that go directly back to him are her.  But many things can go wrong and you can screw up your whole yard in no time at all if you don't know what you are looking at.

After a family of dogs gets so tightly bred the genes have no room to breath so to speak and become stale it might look great on paper saying you have the purest of the pure but in real life it is pure chit  .  When this happens u can take that pure inbred dog and make a direct out cross and when the pups come out you will never even be able to tell you put a complete cross in those dogs they are slow, their conformation is not right , they have no lung power , they have no speed , no stamina and you are rubbing  your head saying damn that cross must not have worked well it was not the cross it was because your inbred dog is so highly pure are inbred that when you made the cross his gene pool completely dominated the out crosses gene pool and you cannot even see the out crossed gene pool any were .

Even tho on paper this says the dogs are a 50/50 cross they are not .  Why you say,  because gene pools and genetics don't know paper and what happen was your inbred dog was so pure bred his gene pools dominated the whole thing and what you really have in real life is dogs that are still  7/8's your inbred dog gene pool !

Most people will number 2 can this and write it off as a cross that didn't work and which it didn't but what you have to do to fix it is you will have to take those dogs that are really 7/8's bred your pure dog even tho th paper says they are 50/50 crosses and cross them again on a pure out .   What happens now is with this cross is you are starting to break down your pure dogs gene pool and now this time you might actually come out with some true 50/50 cross even tho you have had to cross two times to get there even tho the paper work will now show your family bred dogs are only in there 25 percent are a 1/4  lol  and will show that you now have a 3/4 out crossed dogs and a 1/4 your pure blood !

Which if your family dog your pure dog that you first started out with if his gene pool was that pure and that stale you may indeed still have some 3/4 pure dogs in the liter with only a 1/4 out cross.

Inbreeding is tricky and even tho the paper work says this a breeder  has to know what he is looking at .  In this type of breeding I have learned over the years a breeder should trust his eyes and not paper !

I could go on for days on this subject cause I been there.

I know there are some that will say damn this man likes to write a book but there is no easy way to explain this in just a few words when  you have seen so much over a 30 year period !

[Peachcreek]

man blow that $h1t out.... you have to be high to follow this thread.
 
line breeding/inbreeding IS the same thang. both are insest and insest is the best put your cousin to the test. this topic makes my head hurt. if ya breed two good dogs together and they throw good dogs do it again, if not try another breeding next time. sister,brothers,cousins,uncles,daughters,mothers,fathers,sons or what ever works its all a crap shoot in the end.

back when buck was just a calf i was around a whole bunch of high dollar champion walker dogs, my uncle always bred his two best dogs it didnt matter if they were related or not most of the time they were related. he insisted this was the only way to halfway assure ya MIGHT get a few good pups "if ya breed crap ya get crap" he culled hard core and always had great dogs. Jmo

I think maybe people are over thinking this a little.

[Scott]

man blow that $h1t out.... you have to be high to follow this thread.
 
line breeding/inbreeding IS the same thang. both are insest and insest is the best put your cousin to the test. this topic makes my head hurt. if ya breed two good dogs together and they throw good dogs do it again, if not try another breeding next time. sister,brothers,cousins,uncles,daughters,mothers,fathers,sons or what ever works its all a crap shoot in the end.

back when buck was just a calf i was around a whole bunch of high dollar champion walker dogs, my uncle always bred his two best dogs it didnt matter if they were related or not most of the time they were related. he insisted this was the only way to halfway assure ya MIGHT get a few good pups "if ya breed crap ya get crap" he culled hard core and always had great dogs. Jmo

I think maybe people are over thinking this a little.

So, in your opinion it's all happenstance? Is there no science whatsoever in consistently producing quality dogs?

[make-em-squeel]

man blow that $h1t out.... you have to be high to follow this thread.
 
line breeding/inbreeding IS the same thang. both are insest and insest is the best put your cousin to the test. this topic makes my head hurt. if ya breed two good dogs together and they throw good dogs do it again, if not try another breeding next time. sister,brothers,cousins,uncles,daughters,mothers,fathers,sons or what ever works its all a crap shoot in the end.

back when buck was just a calf i was around a whole bunch of high dollar champion walker dogs, my uncle always bred his two best dogs it didnt matter if they were related or not most of the time they were related. he insisted this was the only way to halfway assure ya MIGHT get a few good pups "if ya breed crap ya get crap" he culled hard core and always had great dogs. Jmo

I think maybe people are over thinking this a little.

its really not a crap shoot line breeding is basic science if you take the time to study it, and you will reproduce the traits your looking for much more often than throwing good dog to good dog. What if all your good dogs litter mates were sh!t eaters, what do you think the odds are of you getting good dogs from him?