? about Line Breeding

[make-em-squeel]

I have been taking notes from some old dog men, and studying some of there line bred curs papers. It is VERY tight, like dad to daughter, and granddaughter, then those pups to another litters sibling etc. They say it has been done for yrs with horses, cows, and pigs etc. and that dogs are no different.
My first thought was this is what causes "pitbull or rottweiler" attacks, or just makes them crazy. But there big curs are all very intellegent and produce high % hard hunting hog dogs or great cow dogs etc.
My regular hunting buddies dont want to breed dad to daughter or cross up real tight...What is the opinion of the FORUM on this subject??[/b]

[Dexter]

 in my eyes line breeding is sometimes a good thing when done right  father  - daughter - grandaughter and great granddaughter and the same with mother -- son and so on

 they say dont go more than 3 lines back  i have done three  steps line breeding with my lines and had great results and plan on doing it again but you need to be set up where you can hold on to a  few gyps for several years  so as to cull out  certain traits and workablity
that your looking for
 
 some folks will inbreed  where  you cross brother to sister and cousins  but if theres a gap in the breeding for a couple of breedings i am of the belief that   it shouldnt hurt   like   where    theres a couple out crosses
  
 thats a lil bit of my ideals on the subject and what i go by
 Dexter
 

[3-Bdogs]

x 2

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

in my eyes line breeding is sometimes a good thing when done right  father  - daughter - grandaughter and great granddaughter and the same with mother -- son and so on

Dexter,

I line breed my hounds, but from the statement above that is a case of inbreeding.  I think most out there don't truely know the difference in the two. 

As for the original question, if you choose to closely linebreed, you had better make for darn sure what you start with is exactly what you hope to reproduce.  As, close linebreeding multiplies both the positives and negatives of said line.  It is not uncommon to see traits of ancestors 3 generations back surface if continued line breeding occurs.  The foundation of your breeding program needs to be based on for sure real deal dogs if you elect to breed tightly. JMO!!!!!!!!

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Personally, the aunt x nephew or uncle x neice crosses seem to consistantly produce better situations from my dealings with dogs.  That being said, I have seen some dandies that were half brother x half sister breedings.  You can bank, that the negative traits will surface though if this is continued, just as the positives will.  It is not something that can be seen in 1-2 years of breeding dogs.  Time tells all.  None of this is directed at an individual, just stating what my little mind has to offer.  Personally, the father x daughter or mother x son breedings that I have seen first hand, did nothing but take time away from the overall line.  It was basically a bust the very few times that I have seen it.  Since those instances, I have elected to stay away from it. 

[3-Bdogs]

i think its to each his own but i have had lots of success with father daughter breeding and  now lots of ppl who do it with good results i would only do it then follow it with a outcross that was also line bred JMO

[Wmwendler]

There really is no standard definition as to where the line is between inbred and linebred.  Both terms can mean different things to differnt people. 

I've allways heard and thought of inbred as a negative term, meaning a close breeding turned out bad.  And line bred was a close breeding than turned out good.  In my opinion allot really depends on the breeding history of the dogs used in the cross.  For example a Fauther Daughter cross.....If the dam to the daughter was totally unrelated to the Sire.  Then take the pups for the father daughter cross and cull hard for negative traits that could be a good start in getting a line of dogs going.  Ofcourse if you had some dogs that were allready tightly bred a father daughter breeding probly too close.  Even so, dogs that throw negative traits because they were bred too tight might not make breding material for fear of perpetuating those traits further down the line but they may still make good using dogs just not breeding dogs.

Waylon

[Dexter]

well crap i guess  We (my grandaddy ,dad,, breeding cattle,horse and dogs )  been doing it all wrong and i guess  my ag teacher was  wrong too.. (rip H.D. Kay) Ag teach in Troy Texas  "79"  and other refrence Dr. Morgan  biology,zoology  79 80 81 Temple  college
   everyones got an ideal on breeding and ill stick with what i was taught and it works for me
     Dexter

[txmaverick]

My father - daughter  breedings have worked great with pups that hit the ground working at very young ages with no problems. But this is with dogs that have not been line nor inbred to death.
I then breed one of those pups back to an outcross (if things or to tight) or an uncle or aunt depending on what I want.

[duece24]

first off inbreeding didn't make pits attack people, bad owners did. you can truly breed anyway you would like. for best %'s you have to always start with a GREAT dog then you need a GREAT female. from that point you have to see if they are producers. this will take nothing but time. people for some reason think just because this dog is great he will throw great dogs. if he doesn't come from a line of high % producers then he probally isn't going to be a high % producer.

if you are going to linebreed/inbreed make sure whatever dogs you stick together are what you want as them being so closely related their traits (as stated) both good and bad will show up promenently. when i was breeding pits the best cross i seen was a good three way cross. take three really great lines and interweave them. when we did this our litters had a really high production rate and the traits we wanted showed up at high %'s as well. if your line starts to take a step back it was easy to get back live by just taking one of the three lines and infusing a pure representative of that line with teh traits you want and your yard is live again for about 5-10yrs.

[Randy_P]

x2 on the pitbull comment.  Very well spoken duece!!

[make-em-squeel]

Thanks for the input gentleman. Very interesting. I think if i do it its line breeding and if you do it its inbreeding  JK

[hogdoggintn]

Very interesting subject. I agree with what most have said, when line breeding this not only passes on good but also the bad traits. Whether you are line breeding or not I believe you should only breed the best dogs, if you don't you end up with a bunch of pups that ain't worth the feed they are eating. 

[BarrNinja]

I have been taking notes from some old dog men, and studying some of there line bred curs papers. It is VERY tight, like dad to daughter, and granddaughter, then those pups to another litters sibling etc. They say it has been done for yrs with horses, cows, and pigs etc. and that dogs are no different.
My first thought was this is what causes "pitbull or rottweiler" attacks, or just makes them crazy. But there big curs are all very intellegent and produce high % hard hunting hog dogs or great cow dogs etc.
My regular hunting buddies dont want to breed dad to daughter or cross up real tight...What is the opinion of the FORUM on this subject??[/b]

I cant help it. I have to ask.

If you have old dog men who have figured out how to breed high percentages of very intellegent, hard hunting dogs , then why do you even care what this board has to say? 
Seems to me the proof is right there in the pudding. If it was me, I would get on back to those old dog men and keep taking notes. 

[parker]

the  proof  in a  line  breeding  program  is  in the  stock  it has  produced ...... perty  plain and simple   some  programs produce  what that  person  likes  and  what another  person  doesn't  like ..




.. get a  registration  form  to  register a  ukc bred  dog  and  it  says  what  is  considered  inbred  and  will  be  on  your  papers  if  bred  that way .......been  years  since  i  registered  one  but  i  believe  its  father  to  daughter  mother  to  son  or  siblings bred  together .......





let me  say  this  old  stocks  of  dogs  is  just that  old  stocks  of  dogs  ,,,,,,,we  have  to  adapt all the time ........

[BarrNinja]

I agree with you Mr. Parker. In line breeding, the principles seem to be the same even though folks breed to their own liking.

 
I use to think like make-em-squeel's hunting buddies. Bred best to best. 3 puppies out of over 40 is not good at all. Most of the others were decent dogs but only watered down versions of the great dogs they were bred out of.

In other words, I never bred chit breeding best to best and just got lucky on 3.

 

 

[parker]

thing  is  you can't  breed  whole  litters  of  exceptional dogs ...some  will always  be  better than  other's  in the  litter ......you can  actually breed  lesser  line  bred  dogs and  get  better  litters  as a  whole  with a  good  chance  of  seeing  an  exceptional  dog ....... i  have  always  said  i'd  breed  to  a  lesser  line  bred dog  over an  exceptional  dog  of  poor  breedings ...... it's  teh  throw  backs  you  get  with  non  line  bred  dogs ......thats  why  its  hard  to  compare  breeding multiple  litter  animals  to  horses  or  cattle ........ we  have  to  breed  for  intellagence as  well  as  physical  traits ..... i believe  i  can  breed  up  any  line  just  takes a  while  to  do  it ........

[raider54]

In-Breeding by definition is: Father X Daughter, Mother X Son, Brother X Sister. No matter what the AG teacher says or your granpa or anyone else! That being said, if you choose to breed Father to Daughter that is not necessarily a bad thing, it doesnt mean the dog will have two heads. The biggest concern would be the same as what you are trying to achieve with all those quility traits and that is hopefully you will concentrate them in the next generation! Now for the concern  "YOU WILL MORE THAN LIKELY CONCENTRATE THE NEGATIVE TRAITS AS WELL" Remember you will only be able to reproduce "TRAITS" example (cold nose) You will not reproduce "LEARNED BEHAVIOR" example (good handle). If you have a strong UNDESIRABLE TRAIT you will only deminish that trait with an OUTCROSS! Likewise if a dog lacks a certain TRAIT you desire (Hunt Drive) you will need to make an OUTCROSS in an attempt to secure some of those traits for your future generations.

                                                                              This is NOT JMO! These are facts
Grant, who's the DR. now???......lol

[hog tied]

I just want to say that the theory of only breeding dogs who are great to other great dogs is the only way to get great offspring is not true in my opinion. A dog has genetics just as people do and those genetics are what will make your dogs. For instance if you have two littermates and one of them is average and one is really good, in my opinion their offspring will have the same genetic make up and therefore be the same dogs. Something else to consider when calling a dog or dogs great, are the oppurtunities they have to learn their craft.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

I am not an expert and don't know about how genes all mesh together but DR. White ( formerly Texas A&M I think dead now anyway) was an expert, here is a link to some articles he wrote there are some by others but his are there two. He was handed a very tight line bred family of Foxhounds his daddy left him and his grandpa gave his daddy he had both hands on & the science experience and I trust what he say's (not that it matters what i think ) and there are many others that  produces a very high number of great dogs year after year. So thats who I ask about breeding, men who have had an unusualy high # of above average dogs of like traits and style that reproduce like dogs over and over.

http://www.foxhoundspastandpresent.com/breeding.html