? about Line Breeding

[Bryant]

Linebreeding is just a milder form of inbreeding, but technically they're the same thing and each has their place for a breeder who has a goal in mind, and a pretty good understanding of how to achieve it.

The purpose of linebreeding is simply consistancy.  This breeding method doesn't produce better or worse dogs, just dogs that are consistant with the line.  With linebreeding, your goal should never be to produce a dog that is any better than the dogs you start with.

[parker]

how  many  colleges or  dr's  does  anyone  know  that  has  studied  breeding  results  of  hogdogs ?   and  if  they did  they  would  have  different  conflicting  opinions .....


YOU DO NOT  HAVE  TO  OUTCROSS  TO  ADD  TO  YOUR  LINE .......  most  likely  there  is  individuals  in  your  line  that  posses  what  you  are  trying  to  acheive ....might take  you  several litter's  to  get  one  that  shows  it ....


dogs are subject to have lots of throw  backs .....thats  why  dogs  are  different than  breeding  livestock ..... also  why they are  great  for  line breeding ....you  can select breed  from  within ...then  line  breed  from there ....may be  alot  easier  to  just  outcross  or  start  over  but  it  can be  done .....


i've started  me  a  little  project  breeding  to a  female  german shorthair ......do i need  too ....no .....i'm looking at  maybe  just  maybe  i  will get  something  more physical ( faster) just a  better  athelete .......


but  nose,hunt, brains  no  i  can  get that  from  what  i  have .....most dogs  breeds  i know  of  if not  all  have  common  inherited  traits  just  from being a  dog ..... and  can  be  bred  up  or  bred  down from  within there  own  lines ........its  the  color  and  physical aspects we may  have  to out cross  for .... idefinately am no exspert just my limited opinion ///

[raider54]

I just want to say that the theory of only breeding dogs who are great to other great dogs is the only way to get great offspring is not true in my opinion. A dog has genetics just as people do and those genetics are what will make your dogs. For instance if you have two littermates and one of them is average and one is really good, in my opinion their offspring will have the same genetic make up and therefore be the same dogs. Something else to consider when calling a dog or dogs great, are the oppurtunities they have to learn their craft.

you make two great points, however breeding greatness to greatness should be a breeders montra!

[raider54]

how  many  colleges or  dr's  does  anyone  know  that  has  studied  breeding  results  of  hogdogs ?   and  if  they did  they  would  have  different  conflicting  opinions .....


YOU DO NOT  HAVE  TO  OUTCROSS  TO  ADD  TO  YOUR  LINE .......  most  likely  there  is  individuals  in  your  line  that  posses  what  you  are  trying  to  acheive ....might take  you  several litter's  to  get  one  that  shows  it ....

You definately do have to make an outcross to obtain missing traits in your own line! all the line or in-breeding in the world will not put a cold nose on a line that are hot nosed!  Here is an example- if you had 100 mares you could line breed them to 99 different studs but if you want a colt with STRIPES you will have to outcross #100 to a ZEBRA to get a colt with STRIPES! Does this make sense? When you desire a trait your line doesnt posess you have to go outside your line to get it! This is a matter of genetics. if you breed minature poodles to minature poodles they will NEVER NEVER NEVER have a standard size Poodle, but if you outcross the minature to a standard you could have either or both in one. The exception to this rule is a RECESSIVE GENE! If you are counting on a recessive gene to strengthen and consentrate your line you are probably in for a long wait! and it may NEVER happen.

[duece24]

parker and raider54 you are both right! how you like them apples...lol.

parker if your line has the traits you are looking for you can stay within your line to get what you want. problem is like you said you may have to go through several litters to find what you want, then you have to breed that individual to their parents to get what you want. then in that litter you may not get ANY that show that trait so you have to repeat that breeding to get what you want again, hoping it shows. if you have a trait in your line that doesn't show prominently you have to do a lot of breedings to get what you want and most people don't have that time, so most people outcross to QUICKLY get what they want.

i use pitbulls because that is what i have the most experience with. if you take the eli line of dogs there are several different STRAINS within this LINE. if you take nigerino, this line of dogs produce dogs that are long athletic and really fast dogs. the eli jr dogs are bigger, stonger and have WAY more bite, the jeep dogs are more traditional in size and don't produce as much bite but are generally more game than either of the other two. three lines that originate from the same dog(eli) but you can't tell they are related by looking at them or by their traits.

some of the best pits of all time were father to daughter(we call that double bred), and some were triple bred(a pup whose sire is also the grandsire and the great-grandsire). when they are bred that tight you then have to go a realted dog that has an outcross in there also. this wakes up the blood when you do this. inbreeding is a great tool if you know what your doing. just going best to best is a great idea, BUT it has to be not just great dog to great dog BUT a great dog from a great line of dogs bred to another great dog from a great line of dogs..my last thing for everyone to think about is the ablity to reproduce. if you take a great dog that doesn't come from a line of dogs that reproduce then you are pissin in the wind..

[BarrNinja]

" just going best to best is a great idea, BUT it has to be not just great dog to great dog BUT a great dog from a great line of dogs bred to another great dog from a great line of dogs..my last thing for everyone to think about is the ablity to reproduce. if you take a great dog that doesn't come from a line of dogs that reproduce then you are pissin in the wind.. "

LOL. I can agree with this statement 100%. Im an expert at pissing in the wind!!!

No matter how you look at it, line breeding and outcrossing that line when you need it works! Figuring out how to do it right is the tricky part for me.

[parker]

raider 54 ....... read what  i said ......you will  need  to outcross  for  physical aspects as well  as  color if  you  don't  have  what  you  desire in  your  line ....but  far  as  nose  and  hunt .....NO .......those  are dog  inherited  traits ....perty  much  all lines  of  dogs  have  it ......you  just  may  have  to  breed  several  times  to  get  one  with  it  then  line  breed  from  there ........ your  trying  to  use  horse  logic  to  dogs  in  some  area's  it  just  doesn't  aply ......


for  instance  some  of  the working  lines  of  dog  have  been  show  bred  so  much  they don't show  much  of  the traits they  were  bred  for .......nose /hunt/   now  in  reverse  respect  if  you  can  breed  it  out  you  can breed  it  back ......

[raider54]

I couldnt agree more!

parker and raider54 you are both right! how you like them apples...lol.

parker if your line has the traits you are looking for you can stay within your line to get what you want. problem is like you said you may have to go through several litters to find what you want, then you have to breed that individual to their parents to get what you want. then in that litter you may not get ANY that show that trait so you have to repeat that breeding to get what you want again, hoping it shows. if you have a trait in your line that doesn't show prominently you have to do a lot of breedings to get what you want and most people don't have that time, so most people outcross to QUICKLY get what they want.

i use pitbulls because that is what i have the most experience with. if you take the eli line of dogs there are several different STRAINS within this LINE. if you take nigerino, this line of dogs produce dogs that are long athletic and really fast dogs. the eli jr dogs are bigger, stonger and have WAY more bite, the jeep dogs are more traditional in size and don't produce as much bite but are generally more game than either of the other two. three lines that originate from the same dog(eli) but you can't tell they are related by looking at them or by their traits.

some of the best pits of all time were father to daughter(we call that double bred), and some were triple bred(a pup whose sire is also the grandsire and the great-grandsire). when they are bred that tight you then have to go a realted dog that has an outcross in there also. this wakes up the blood when you do this. inbreeding is a great tool if you know what your doing. just going best to best is a great idea, BUT it has to be not just great dog to great dog BUT a great dog from a great line of dogs bred to another great dog from a great line of dogs..my last thing for everyone to think about is the ablity to reproduce. if you take a great dog that doesn't come from a line of dogs that reproduce then you are pissin in the wind..

[raider54]

Nose and Hunt I disagree, if your line doesnt have it you are out of luck. I used the horse analogy as a black and white illustration. as far as breeding back in what you have bred out? if it is bred out it is GONE! you can spend 20 years in a breeding program to find this out if you like but I believe I will make an outcross as a quick fix with better odds.

raider 54 ....... read what  i said ......you will  need  to outcross  for  physical aspects as well  as  color if  you  don't  have  what  you  desire in  your  line ....but  far  as  nose  and  hunt .....NO .......those  are dog  inherited  traits ....perty  much  all lines  of  dogs  have  it ......you  just  may  have  to  breed  several  times  to  get  one  with  it  then  line  breed  from  there ........ your  trying  to  use  horse  logic  to  dogs  in  some  area's  it  just  doesn't  aply ......


for  instance  some  of  the working  lines  of  dog  have  been  show  bred  so  much  they don't show  much  of  the traits they  were  bred  for .......nose /hunt/   now  in  reverse  respect  if  you  can  breed  it  out  you  can breed  it  back ......

[parker]

throw backs  is the  key .....it  can work  two  different  ways ......it  can  bring  you  too  or  away  from  what  you  want ,,,,,, line  bred  have  less  odd throw backs .......



i  don't  think  you  can breed  something like  nose  or  hunt totally  out ........  its what  makes a  dog  a  dog  ....... you  cannot  use  horse  logic  on  dogs  as  far  as  nose  and  hunt ...... 


 anytime a person needs  a  quick  fix   there  breeding practices wasn't  that  good  to  start  with ...... 

[hogdoggintn]

I agree with most of what everyone is saying, some more that others. Genetics is extremely complicated! Not only genetics determine how a dog hunts, but also their TRAINING. Most dogs (not all) that people consider "great" are that way because they have had alot of "great" training and experience. Anyway back to genteics, a dog can carry genes and not express them and some genes can effect other genes.Some genes may be passed through several generations before they show up. My opinion is ALL breeders should try to study and understand the genetics of the dogs, set a goal as to what they are looking for in the "perfect" dog, and then it is up to chance that they ever get it right!

[make-em-squeel]

Boarninja to answer your ? from a few posts back I guess honestly put I dont care what the forums opinion is because I am getting pups from him regardless, however I am curious to know the opinions of everyone and find this to be an intersting post.

I simply dont believe you can breed great dog to great dog and reproduce good dogs on avg. I have seen it fail over and over. Talking about most pups in the litter not the exception's, and who wants to feed an entire litter for 9-12mo to save a 1 or a few. However Bob Cox's line bred curs throw consistant hard hunting go yander dogs with great bottom etc. Even though the papers are inbred something is working.

[3-Bdogs]

bob coxs has got some real good blood wouldn't be scared to hunt with any of his dogs

[BarrNinja]

Boarninja to answer your ? from a few posts back I guess honestly put I dont care what the forums opinion is because I am getting pups from him regardless, however I am curious to know the opinions of everyone and find this to be an intersting post.

I simply dont believe you can breed great dog to great dog and reproduce good dogs on avg. I have seen it fail over and over. Talking about most pups in the litter not the exception's, and who wants to feed an entire litter for 9-12mo to save a 1 or a few. However Bob Cox's line bred curs throw consistant hard hunting go yander dogs with great bottom etc. Even though the papers are inbred something is working.

Seen failure over and over? Sounds like they were using my breeding program from 15- 20 years ago! lol.
 
Line breeding/inbreeding definitely works but only a small handful I know of has got or had a good handle on it. I also agree that done wrong or handled recklessly it can and will produce junk.
I seen it in my younger days by others and thats why it took me so long to change my way of thinking about it.
Heck! Im still trying to get a handle on it myself and thats why I am so interested in these threads. Maybe I never really will but, If I had a man like Mr. Cox to take notes from, I would be miles ahead! Men like that are way more valuable to you than a good dog thats for sure. They can teach you how to make a bunch of good dogs!
 
 

[Dexter]

yes  some forms of line breeding  can and is called iningbreeding  i will agree with that   and disagree with that depends on what percentages of one  or both foudation parents genes you are trying to achieve  there will alway be an arguement of  breeding practices til theend of time   here is on type of line breeding i think most are talking about and yes i will agree with this it in the end only ends with 37 % of the  one said gene type in the final offspring                                                         i think i can do this

Trippz
           Ginger
Queen

                          Ringo


Chooper
           Boomer
Lacy

------------------------------  Twisted Sister  with 37 percent of the parent genes  this is the truest form of line breeeding

Trippz
         Ginger   
Queen
                       Jasper
Joker
         Spanky   
Darla

   as its said mybe so in breeding i might  be doing  but i sill get   consitant  dogs of size mind and work ability  even doing the in breeding or line breeding or how ever they are bred and will continue to do so til im dead and have bred dogs cattle  gamecocks  with great results   
     and  also have follow the  true form of line breeding  but only got about  a 1/3 of what i wanted verses  over 3/4  and a less amount of time and dogs  and i will say this i have had some throwed off POS's that was culled permantlly and never repeated that breeding if the % of pos dogs was greater than a 1/4
 Dexter
 o and i dont knock dead folks  its just bad karma

[waylon-N.E. OK]

What about evolution, if my grandpa had 100 hot nose dogs never outcrossed ever and pushed them to cold trail, my daddy did the same thing, i did also then my son did. would anyone say the dogs would never get better nosed than the first dogs my grandpa started with, I cant buy into that at all. some will say well they might learn to use there nose better thats all, or i would just be line breeding the better nosed dogs and it would just show up that way, i dont beleave that either. I don't think it takes 1000's of years either. In a given pack of any wild animal it takes only a few generations to alter there natural make up to adapt to there surroundings and I think dogs work the same way. Line breeding will be argued about until Jesus comes back, but if you dont work what ever dogs you have to there full ability then it doesnt really matter cause you will never know what you had anyway. I don't think most guys need to be breeders, myself included because it takes you spending alot of time, more than most of us really have, with your dogs watching them and working with them daily to really know what your working with, then you need to keep every pup until there atleast a year old, i think longer. then cull like hell and if you do that for 50 years your well on your way to being a breeder................................................ but JMO

[Florida Curdog]

I have a question. I have a female that is the best hog dog I have ever owned. I bred her one time before and a buddy of mine has a male from that litter. I wouldn't change a thing about either one of them. If I bred those two would I have a real good chance of  the pups coming out like them ?  Someone told me it's better to breed from the top but I have no idea   Thanks.

[3-Bdogs]

my opinio i would do it i normally breed dad to daughter but if you truly like everything about the two then go for it the only thing like stated above is your goin to have different genes show up in some of the pups so to get the good ones your goin to have to keep the whole litter and cul hard that's where in my opinion ppl mess up and dog jockeys take advantage they don't cull i cull hard if you don't want junk gett rid of the rejects JMO

[raider54]

throw backs  is the  key .....it  can work  two  different  ways ......it  can  bring  you  too  or  away  from  what  you  want ,,,,,, line  bred  have  less  odd throw backs .......



i  don't  think  you  can breed  something like  nose  or  hunt totally  out ........  its what  makes a  dog  a  dog  ....... you  cannot  use  horse  logic  on  dogs  as  far  as  nose  and  hunt ...... 


 anytime a person needs  a  quick  fix   there  breeding practices wasn't  that  good  to  start  with ...... 


Parker if betting your program on a throwback is the way you would aproach it be my guest. I would put my trust in an outcross. If you are trying to insult me it wont happen, just because you want to be right or think you are right doesnt make it so. If you wanna wait on a throwback Im not mad at you, my friend Grant started this thread and asked a legitimate question and with a response that just isnt right I will rebutt it and thats exactly what I have done. Sorry if I offended you

[duece24]

I have a question. I have a female that is the best hog dog I have ever owned. I bred her one time before and a buddy of mine has a male from that litter. I wouldn't change a thing about either one of them. If I bred those two would I have a real good chance of  the pups coming out like them ?  Someone told me it's better to breed from the top but I have no idea   Thanks.

in my opinion your chances depends on if both those dogs come from dogs that have produced dogs like that before. if those two are the only ones that have come out like out of several litters then your chances are no greater than any of ours. now if those dogs come from a line of dogs that are throwing real good dogs consistantly then you have a better than avg chance. i would do it. the males out of that litter that are good i would take to their grandmother and the females i would take to their grandfather. i think you then have a great base of dogs to start with.