my pups

[Bryant]

Your right, the more handle on these dogs the shorter you can make em if you so choose..The other side of that is, I  have found a lot of folks dont know how to get a cur dog to going  yonder and think that all cur dogs hunt short or they got a dud when in reality, it's their lack of knowledge and knowhow hindering that.

I'll admit..I'm probably the poorest dog trainer on the planet.  That's why I raise the dogs that I do, so that I don't have to be good.  I don't care how good a trainer or dog-man is, there's no way to ever overcome poor genetics.

I've personally never seen anyone "train" hunting drive (or brains for that matter) into a dog that wasn't bred and born with it.

[craig]

i will have to agree with you on that Bryant, i can get one out from under my feet, but they just stay a little farther out in the bushes.

 as far as making one leave and go hunting, i can send them behind an old dog(that they know) and get most of them to go with the older dog , i keep sending them with the old dog and after a few hogs at the end of a long track the pups will stay hooked longer. every dog i have raised that leaves out and goes hunting was born with that drive, i just helped him learn how to use it..

on thing about me i may carry a fancy internet title  , but i can take and welcome advice from others, when i get to smart to stop learning i will be in the ground.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Even though I beleave in breeding dogs I will say its not for everyone it takes lots of time and lots of want to to get it done!!!
x2

I couldn't agree with ya more there, I Have seen guys get into a really good line of dogs be it, hounds,bird dogs, cow dogs ( even good Hanc ock horses   ) what ever and 5 years later there producing junk dogs and give the name of that line a bad rap.

I have a question for you and any of the other guys who have been in on this subject so far

Say you have this dog he or she is heavy line breed you cross him/her because you want to outcross to a dog that is like your in style/ability ect. same breed lets say BMC but no where can you trace the 2 together. how can you blend the 2 lines together without starting a genetic tornado that may not crop out the problems until 5-10 years later, or know that you wont blow all those years of work that has been done by close line breeding especialy when you don't have first hand knowledge of the aforementioned dogs parents, grandparents on the outcross you have chosen

I know if you line breed even inbreed you can begin to elimanate what you dont like out of the line of dogs but that  some people say they will loose some vigor and health issue's may come into play like small litters weak pups ect. if done for extremely long periods of time, but and I am asking here not saying I know this, How can you keep what you have and not gamble on looseing it when you outctoss to another line of dogs???  The King Ranch Quater Horses, Cattle ect. were inbred until the type was made then keep close line breeding to keep it back in the old days ( Hired Hand ect ect.), when I bred my linebred Hanc ocks over a King Ranch mare the foals were nice but not true to form or style every time like the Hanc ocks were while we linebred them close. I rode the outcrosses but to me they were worthless to use for breeding in my hanc ock line for fear of the king ranch mares genes being dominant and loosing what I felt the Hanc ocks brought in thought they were both quaterhorses they just didn't blend like I thought they would and I don't wanna go through that again on dogs  (

I know I asked alot but there some questions I have been working in my mind along time and trying to get lots of opnions on so maybe you guys can help me out here

Sorry Craig I know we are getting of topic here but I don't want to pass up on the good info I am getting so far

[Monteria]

Say you have this dog he or she is heavy line breed you cross him/her because you want to outcross to a dog that is like your in style/ability ect. same breed lets say BMC but no where can you trace the 2 together. how can you blend the 2 lines together without starting a genetic tornado that may not crop out the problems until 5-10 years later, or know that you wont blow all those years of work that has been done by close line breeding especialy when you don't have first hand knowledge of the aforementioned dogs parents, grandparents on the outcross you have chosen

I think that the easy answer is..... By immediately bringing the best pup from that outcross (theoretically 0 familial coefficient) back to your line.

Outcrossing is not just the act of bringing two unrelated dogs together, that is called random breeding. Outcrossing is the act of bringing two unrelated dogs, expressing similar attributes together with the intention of using the lower coefficient product to maintain the health and integrity of the line you started with.

Does that make sense?

Steve

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Yeah steve it does & I undertand what your saying there but how many times can you outcross, lets say just for a number here oh.. in 10 years before you have added so much new blood that you really don't have the same dogs you started with. wouldn't you have to keep a string of inbred ones to breed your outcross back onto in order to keep that first set of genetics?? or at the least keep most of it

Let me further ramble by asking this, How are people getting the info like my dog is 39.75% Weatherfords Ben or what ever dog you like, I have seen dogs bred together who more followed there grandparent(s) then there sire or dam? so is that % stuff accurate or a sells pitch........................ One more thing then I'll try to shut up a while, If you started with dogs that had been outcrossed alot then to ME you can't say I have a line of dogs youjust have dog and you would have to linebreed very close or really to ME inbreed for a while to set a type or style before you can breed true with a very high % so when we start outcrossing how do we then not run the risk of blowing it all and having to regroup and start all over.. I hope I made that all clear enough to understand it?

[Monteria]

Oh ya, the outcross does not become your new brood bitch or stud, it is brought back into your line once, usually very tightly. Then the best pup from that litter is again brought back into your original line again, so on and so forth. That way you are using that outcross to maintain your line, not in the creation of a new line. Then, say 5 generations down the line, you have a very high % of your own blood with only a hint of the outcross. In another, say 5 generations, you are at such a high familial coefficient that it is time to find another outcoss and start the same process over again.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

You answered some of my questions while I was typing and didn't see your post until I had typed mine. When you keep bringing in those outcrosses you must be keeping some inbred original ones on the side correct or over time wouldn't you fade out your old blood a little bit at a time?

[Monteria]

Absolutely, you have to keep your original line intact. That's why the guys who get it done right have 20 related line bred dogs and 1 or 2 outcross dogs in their yard. Ill try to draw up a diagram.

Steve

[waylon-N.E. OK]

I get it now, thats what has been messing with me, thinking guys are just outcrossing on there seed stock if you will and not keeping some full linebred dogs off to the side. I have a good friend in his late 70's who has bred game chickens and has the same blood from when he was 14 and that is how he has done it with some variation of outcrossing in degrees but always keeping some full bloods around for vigor as he calls it. I was not sure if it worked the same with dogs. I still wonder how far away from your dogs does another dog have to be in order for it to work as an outcross, I would think a man would only want to go as far as needed away in order to cut down on his culling later on, would you agree?

Thanks alot and I would still like to see a diagram so I could go back over it all later on

[Monteria]

Okay so here is an illustration. It has no application in real life because I didn't want to add uncles aunts, nieces, nephews, brothers or sisters into the equation. But, it does show how the % of your original blood increases over 3 very tight generations. Assume that Dog 1 is the dog you want to replicate. All the dogs from your line are designated with #s. The outcross bitch is Bitch A and her entire line is designated with alpha characters. Outcross 1 is your initial outcross and Line 1 and 2 symbolize the dilution of Bitch A back into your line.



I bet that's confusing as hell huh?

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Kinda but I never said I was smart or anything either but I get the point

[craig]

montera
  what are you breeding back to Dog 2 and Bitch 1 to get your %

[TJR89]

dog 2 gets bred to outcross 1 wich produced line 1.  and bitch 1 gets bred to line 1. i could be wrong but thats the way i read it. really good info guys

[craig]

waylon,  here is how i figure to get the % of a particular dog say my Earl dog.     i bred Earl to Spider that produced Lady Bug 50 % Earl. i then bred Lady Bug back to Earl and produced Candy 75% Earl ..    okay,    then i have Jr  also out of Earl and spider i bred JR to saddie outcross dog,and produce Taz then breed Taz 25 % Earl  back to Candy 75% earl.   well each parent is 50 % of the eqation so 1/2 of 25 is 12.5   and 1/2 of 75 is 37.5  ..    so 37.5 plus 12.5 =  50 %   ,,  thats your pups linage by the way  and how i got to 50 % blood of Earl..     now my next plan is to breed one of those 50% earl pups back to a daughter of earl out of the same outcross gyp and continue to produce 50% Earl blood.    

this is the same thing that was done in the foundation horses to preserve a individual horse say  poco bueno..  

i could have told you that hancock - king ranch cross wouldnt work  thats like breeding one of my dogs to a poddle.    sorry im not a fan of hanckock horses,  i never have a headstall big enough for one of em either..

[craig]

dog 2 gets bred to outcross 1 wich produced line 1.  and bitch 1 gets bred to line 1. i could be wrong but thats the way i read it. really good info guys

if dog 2 is bred back to outcross 1  those pups are only 25% of dog 1 unless dog 1 is in dog 2 pedegree some where else.

and if bitch 1 is bred back to line 1 pup then that pup is only 12.5 % of dog 1

[waylon-N.E. OK]

 Not a fan of Hanc ocks :'( Craig up until now I only had good things to say about you, but no one's perfect Just kidding to each his own, I used to only own Hanc ocks and Catahoula's, now I got yella dogs guess I might should try another horse line maybe but I wouldn't hold my breath there Big heads and cold backs ain't true of all of'em. Glad to know about the background of my pups. Took the pig out today turned him loose and he went to my pond which is 100 yards from the house. Waited 20 mins let the pups out, they went right to his pen expecting to find him, when they didn't I walked them about 15 feet away from it where the pig took out and Able stuck it's track first with Adam right behind they made the short track to the pond, kinda bayed for a second when the pig broke they each had an ear. I was as proud as a Game rooster. Gotta let the pig have a month or 2 off and don't wanna burn my boy's out but there doing more at there age than some year old dogs I have owned before

[Monteria]

Craig, you are absolutely correct. My goal was not the calculation of inbreeding coefficient, it was just to illustrate the application of outcross. I just made up some big numbers to show that each generation diluted the outcross and became more homogeneous to your original line.

I guess that I did really state the whole % of Dog 1 incorrectly though, I was really illustrating the % blood from your original line in comparison to the outcross bitch.

[jerryg]

Craig,

I see and understand your breedings, but I have a few questions.

1. The reason for  your line breedings is to reproduce Earl, correct?

2. When you outcross to Sadie, you are introducing a line bred female that has the same characteristics that Earl has or.. what you are looking for, correct?  (The most important factor here is the outcross being the "RIGHT" linebred female)

Jerryg

[craig]

waylon
   i did have one good han kok  , i think it was a mistake though.  just kidding , i know alot of people ride them and love em..

monteria
  i read your post and agree with everything that graph just thru me.. i see what your saying.

jerryg
 yes sir the earl dog is what im reproducing..   the saddie dog is unrelated but out of a good family of dogs(Bo Nutting dog) that i hunted and proved before i used her as an out cross gyp and yes i have hunted those pups before i used them for my line, i was lucky enough to find a gyp that fit my dogs really well and has proven to work with out adding or taking away anything.. i would have to say she was the right gyp for my dogs.

my dogs orignate from 3 dogs: Earl ,Spider and Saddie ,i kept the saddie dog until i got enough pups out of her and then sold her to make room for linebred dogs.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Let me try to dig a little deeper on this as I woke up in the middleof the night with all this running through my mind!

Craig wrote: now my next plan is to breed one of those 50% earl pups back to a daughter of earl out of the same outcross gyp and continue to produce 50% Earl blood.
 
Monteria wrote concerning keeping a line/inbred line going off to the side:   you have to keep your original line intact

Ok here is my questions then:


Craig is there a reason you ended up keepeing just the 50% mark and not 75% or so. I am trying to wrap this all up in my mind. Is 50% all you thought could safely keep or what. If Earl is what you were trying to reproduce could you have just bred him to a daughter, then granddaughter, even Great graddaughter ect. so long as you culled any defects of sorts that bubbled up so to speak, then once you have that product outcross to say cousins or whatever you felt was just far enough out as to not bring in a complete new line? or do you think that is to tight   If what Monteria said and I can't see anyway around doing that, is correct do you keep straight earl bred dogs off to the side to maintain his original blood? and a line of slightly outcrossed dogs as well??? This is good stuff and I am trying to pry out what I can while you guys are talking,A big thanks by the way