Hunter or Dog ???

[hog428]

How much is it??     Does the hunter make the dog  ??   or is it all blood lines  Iv seen a hunter here he is now 70 plus that could take a rubbish dog and make him an ace over an over if the dogs were with him you knew they were top shelf  he tells me 70 \30 man over dog     My thinking is 60\40 man over dog

[3-Bdogs]

my opinion is 50/50 cause i believe you can turn a dog into a good dog for sure but takes blood and sense to make a jam up dog that's why their so rare to find i have heard of folks who could train any dog but how good would that dog actually be

[Pecos21]

I will say a dog either has "it" or it doesn't....... The person is the one who has to take the dog..... so you can have the best bred hog dog in the world....if the person doesn't take it hunting......well then you just have a dog food vacuum....... 

[ETHHunters]

I will say a dog either has "it" or it doesn't....... The person is the one who has to take the dog..... so you can have the best bred hog dog in the world....if the person doesn't take it hunting......well then you just have a dog food vacuum....... 

So is that 50/50 Pecos. You cant have one without the other.

[dub]

I have seen men break a dog and I have seen them make a dog. But I have seen the breaking more. A good dog can be turned into trash real quick. A good trainer finds what works on most dogs. A great trainer finds what works for each dog. That does not mean that they work miracles. Like a little league coach they should help those that want to play play their best. But the great coach gets the kids that don't want to play want to play. They may not be any good but at least get em off the bench. Then find out if they can play. But a bad coach can mess up a big league player. It is about seeing and developing the talent. So if you are a so so. Coach you need the best players. Do not confuse what I am saying, a great coach with great players will win the world series.

[Pecos21]

I will say a dog either has "it" or it doesn't....... The person is the one who has to take the dog..... so you can have the best bred hog dog in the world....if the person doesn't take it hunting......well then you just have a dog food vacuum....... 

So is that 50/50 Pecos. You cant have one without the other.

I think that the over/under really depends on the particular dog and person. You are correct in stating that you can't have one without the other, but you can have a really good dog and a real new owner and the dog still be an awesome dog or get messed up...... or you can have a mediocre dog and a good owner and the dog be real good or get messed up........ or sometimes you can have both that are really new or just not any good..... you can see how many variable there are to this equation so I don't think there is an exact number that is a cookie cutter percentage........ 

[hog428]

I see guys that call them selfs hunters every week end they go out they even catch hogs   BUT BY NO MEANS are they hunters  A true hunter knows how to bring out the best in his dogs so with out this your dog is only average at best   NOT excluding the natural supper dogs witch you will argue comes from breeding but they are few and far between So  I believe  with out the hunter it would be rare to find a supper dog in the hands of a wanta be hunter    NO HUNTER NO SUPPER DOG

[waylon-N.E. OK]

I don't know which one it is, but i'll take natural dogs every time. I am to the point in my life now that if the dogs dont do it own there own for the most part then i'll find different dogs. Life is to short to work a dog that was not born with it. My hats off to all the good dog trainers, i'm just not one of them I guess

[curdogsforhogs]

So let me understand  what you are saying here...Just because some of us work and are only able to hunt on the weekends...we are not TRUE Hunters?  Cant go making such bold statements..or maybe you can but don't make it true.  I would say that it doesnt take much of a dog to bay/catch a hog...just about any four legged canine will do that but it does take  more of a dog and helps to have breeding and proven bloodline to make a good strike dog and yes the hunter and how he uses the dog will make the difference if the dog ever turns PRO if you want to call it that.   We are only able to get out on Saturdays due to jobs and land availability but hold our own and pull hogs most times out.. percentage has gone way up this year.. that could be we are hunting better ground with more hogs or better dogs...thing is we are still hunting the same dogs so i would say the dogs are finishing out and the young dogs are stepping up...

[hog428]

Not at all!!!      Many ture hunters are stuck in the world    It has nothing to do with how many times you get to hunt



And Im a week end hunter you can only hunt sat sun mon on Kauai

[BigAinaBuilt]

A dog is built by its enviorment and what it is exposed to within its critical and moldable period and then its Behavioral conformation comes into play as far as how its functional motor paterns are wired or arranged. This why it is unlikely that 2 dogs will be exactly the same, No 2 dogs can occupy the same exact space at the same time causing their enviorments to differ.  It heavily depends on the human to put the dog in the desireable mode in order for the dog to accel within this enviorment. You can teach ANY dog to do ANY "trick" as long as it is not against the dogs Physical Conformation (Such as a dachsund trying to enter a weight pulling contest).

I will say the percentage  of human influence is very high!

[3-Bdogs]

here's how im seein this topic take it like baseball so many ppl want to be pro player and they can practice day in and out but if they don't have it they don't have it not sayin they don't get good just that they aren't good enough to go pro

[TColt]

Hog doggers pack is just like a baseball team, you have your coach (the hunter) you have your hog ( the batter) you have your strike dog ( the starting pitcher) you have you help dogs ( the fielders) and you have you cd ( the closing pitcher)
takin it as baseball from a baseball player (me) lets take a pitcher for example, first you either have talent or you dont not everyone throws 90+ mph, a dog either has game or it doesnt in my opinion if a dog doesnt have game then he doesnt get the time of day to see if he is gonna make a hand or not, then you have your coach who teaches you how to use your talent and throw strikes and fixes mechanics just like you have a hunter who trash breaks his dogs so on and so forth, then you have repetitive practice (bullpens) just like you have bay pens to let your dogs practice baying hogs. But what it really comes down to is game experience and this is where it really counts. without game experience you will never be what you can really be, just like a dog has to be hunted repetitivly to reach their full potential. A guy who throws 90 mph with alot of game experience is going to be a better pitcher than a guy who throws 95 mph with little game experience, just like a dog with average blood lines with lots of hogs under his belt is gonna be better than a dog with good blood with fewer hogs, because he has seen what hogs do and knows what to expect and can almost predict what the hog is thinking and what the hog is going to do.
So all that being said in my opinion it is more on the hunter than it is on the dog, i would go with 60/40.

[BarrNinja]

I will agree a little with what everyone is saying here. There are hunters/trainers out there that can make a good dog a better dog just like horse trainers and horses.
Good trainers in anything will start out with the best bred animals they can come by to start with though.

I will say one thing about really good hog dogs. In my opinion, you will really have to try hard to screw up one that is going to be a good one.
I have seen hog hunters that didnt have a clue about training a good dog or didnt even try to train a dog and still end up with a good dog or two just because of the dog!
Sure these dogs could have been better with proper training but they were still dang good dogs even though their trainers where clueless!

[parker]

there's an old saying  you can't  get  blood  from a  turnip ....... its  true .....each  dog  has a  potential peak ....... depending  on how  he  is  hunted will determine  how  it  developes ....... usually takes  someone  that  has experince  in  training dogs to  peak a  dog ......get the  max .....


sometimes  you  can  just  let a  dog  develope  on his  own  if  he has  enuff hunt to  him  or  her ....if  not  you  may  have  to  do  alittle  training ......


it  all  boils  down  to  the  dog  in  ?    as  to  wether  more  training  is  required  or  just takeing  to  the  woods ....

[BarrNinja]

it  all  boils  down  to  the  dog  in  ?    as  to  wether  more  training  is  required  or  just takeing  to  the  woods ....

I think Mr Parker sums it up pretty good with this statement. It just depends on the dog.

[leonriverboy]

I think most of you guys think way to highly of yourselves.  Either the dog has it or he doesn't.  Why waste time, money and energy on one that doesn't?  Take the dog to the woods (where hogs can be found) on a consistant basis and not over hunt him and he will either make it or he want.  Training a hog dog is not difficult it just takes patience and consistancy.  Last, if your dog doesn't make the cut don't sell him as a finished dog, be honest with yourself as well as others.  

[BarrNinja]

I think most of you guys think way to highly of yourselves.    

  Most? Maybe Im reading things wrong but from what I can tell "most" are giving the higher % to the dogs credit in this thread so far.

Sure cant argue with the rest of your statement though.

[make-em-squeel]

With the exception of a few handlers,  just not messing a dog up and leaving them alone is all it takes to make a dog work who has it. An old saying is "that dog wont hunt" you cant turn a whore into a house wife. The dog wants to hunt or not weather it does it for you or itself breeding sure helps hunt, bottom etc. or every dog a certain person owned from the pound would be GREAT and that just i not the case.

[crackerc]

Interesting thread. I agree with most posts, the dog has to have it inside, to make a good dog, no matter who owns it. But, a better trainer/handler can bring out the potential better than a poor trainer/handler. And trainers/handlers have ruined a train load of dogs by lack of knowledge/experience.

I once got a pup from someone who supposedly had good dogs. Silent, cold nosed, medium range dogs that would stay bayed all night. Well, I am always looking for something better than what I am hunting so I had to have one. I had a litter of my own at the same time, of which I kept two pups. I raised the outside pup with the two I bred. Same kennels, same feed, handled the same, started the same, hunted the same. I fed the new dog two YEARS and it never barked at a hog...not once.  It wasn't afraid of the hogs, would follow you to a bay and stand there and wag its tail like it was happy your other dogs caught the hog. By other dogs I mean the two pups I bred that were the same age as this dog...........

So it wasn't the trainer or environment, it was the dog that was lacking in this case. It just didn't have the desire to hunt/bay. It wouldn't even run a hog that you turned out on with the dog looking at it. Needless to say that dog/blood is no longer on my yard...........

But on the other hand I would bet I could take the best hog dog on this board and in less than a month, break it off hogs entirely..........not that I would want to, but just an example of the influence a trainer/handler could have on a dog.