your opinions of why we cross the way we do...

[duece24]

cantex i was thinking the same thing...but i remember on a post a while back they explained what they did...they basically bred the 1/2 and  1/2 to only pits, whenever they got pups that had the catahoula color they bred them to other pits, and they continued that process. so basically they have bred down the cat(its still there, just in such a small dosage that it's almost insignificant....but it is still there).

this is turning into a very good discussion..keep it going...uglydog i think are very right a lot of times they are accidental breedings, but why is there more "accidental" breedings with cats and catch dogs than bmcs and catchdogs..i would like to know why mr. mason chose to cross the dogo and the cat to make his catdo's..now i know he is cat guy, but why not try the bmc he had access to some darn good bmcs when he first started making those crosses.

my personal opinion is that the cat gets used because there will be some good coloring in the pups. when you use a bmc the colors normally aren't very large...black, brindle, yella, and some reds..lol..throw a cat in the mix and there is no telling what you will get..lol

[Crib]

Speaking from exp in genetics, most people who run catchdogs arent people that fool much with genetics in dogs. The opinion is that catchdogs are easy to get. That would depend on the definition of what a catchdog is. I know alot of people will run dogs that will catch anywhere and thats fine for them mabe, but not everyone wants to be sewing up dogs or replacing them as often. Also people will credit pits as dogs that will catch day in and day out, but not many apply how they are bred to get that phenomenon. They are linebred, not bred to everything under the sun. Cats are what they are b/c what? Linebreeding, however this concept is lost when it comes to bulldogs. Bulldogs were once a breed, thats why they blast thru what they are bred to, but just like breeding a pit to something you lose something in the process. You might make good f1 crosses, meaning 1st generation, but after that the effects wear off. Thats why people consider a 3/4 bulldog 1/4 cat worthless. Even gamedog men who have run true gambred pits for years will say a true pit isn't good for catch work, they will grab anything they can get a hold of which may not be the smartest thing to do. I know most may think you just need the right mix, but how many dogs does one go through before getting that? Im willing to bet the purebred style go thru less. If they didnt you wouldnt have 30 year line curs, pure bred cats, BMCs, Blue lacys or pits. No offense to anyone here, I kno there is alot of exp on this board, but Im sure everyone on here has run into a situation where just b/c one has been doing something longer doesnt mean they are doing it perfectly, there is always room for improvement.

[cward]

Chance, how can you breed out the cat? Won't it be there no matter what? Especially if you are line breeding that bulldog .  I might be thinking about someone else but didn't that bulldog blood come from your grandpa?

This line of dogs came from a hunting buddy!! They are not line breed we just kept breeding them to pit x pit and the lepoard coloring comes in half of every litter!! We just are very selective on what kind of pit we cross them to!!! We  have never line breed any of them but it has crossed my mind!! Just not going to keep a yard full of catch dogs to breed! My hunting buddy keeps 2 lepoard pit gyps and when I want a pup I find the right male dog to breed her too!! I have 2 lepoards on my yard for catch dogs!!

Now all my cur dogs are line breed and came from my uncle!! Every cur on my place is related!!


The male I use is a great great  great gradson of the 3/4 pit  1/4 cat!! That Jermey started with!! Every cross after that was with pit!!

So yes the cat would be breed out of them!! Just the color stayed!!

[cward]

Go to a Boar Gaot Breeder and ask him can he start out with a 50% Boar  and 50% whatever goat and in about 5 breedings back to a boar gaot they will have a 100 % Regstered Boar goat!! They have breed all the cross out of them!!!

If my dogs have any cat in them left I would like someone to break the percentage down for me and see what they come up with!!! The dog would come back as a 100% fullblood!! But not a 100% purebreed!! Some how there is a difference!!

[Bryant]

How can a gene for color remain present in the phenotype, but other genes become supressed or non-existant?  I'm not so sure I agree.  Tightly linebreed those dogs, and you'll find the old dogs.  A thing known as throwbacks.  It happens all the time to people who think they have a couple of pure this or thats...breed them for a couple gererations them something odd pops out.

I've personally always wondered about the crosses as well.  The dogs each person desires are more than likely present in each breed, you just have to find them.  Bulldogs are the same as cur dogs...it's not as simple as breeding this dog to that dog and getting something right in between.

[BigAinaBuilt]

If I understood what you said Chance your dog is 96.875% Pit and 3.125% Cat. If you started with a 75% pit and 25% Cat and crossed 3 times with pure pit. If you keep crossing ou the pit it will eventually get down to fractions of a percent but I can figure that out for ya if you want. Let me know how many crosses were talking about, I had fun figuring that out!

[roughdog]

i x breed my dogs the way i do becouse they work for me  got lots of grit

[cward]

There again I said they will be a fullblood but not a purebreed!!!



trust me I have bought plenty of Boar gaots!!

A Purebreed on a goet farm will cost you lots of money!!
A fullblood will cost a little less that a purebreed!!
A percentage Goat will  be way cheaper!!

Crossing the dog the  way we did will make a fullblood but not a purebreed!! Bryant do you understand where I am coming from! I agree with what you are saying!! But makeing the pit cross constantly would put the dog back as a fullblood pit!!

[3-Bdogs]

i think allot of folks x breeds bc mainly lack of knowledge of genetics and because that's what to dogs they had and didn't think of all the factors going in to it and after all those are out of the way you have accidents then after that you have prob a 10 % of ppl who know what their doin take for example mr parker or any other ppl out there who have done a great job of producin consistent hog dogs they didn't go crossin a bunch of stuff together they found a dog that worked and lineBred it i guess what im sayin is most ppl can't answer this ? for the simple fact they just don't know in my opinion

[BigAinaBuilt]

i think allot of folks x breeds bc mainly lack of knowledge of genetics and because that's what to dogs they had and didn't think of all the factors going in to it and after all those are out of the way you have accidents then after that you have prob a 10 % of ppl who know what their doin take for example mr parker or any other ppl out there who have done a great job of producin consistent hog dogs they didn't go crossin a bunch of stuff together they found a dog that worked and lineBred it i guess what im sayin is most ppl can't answer this ? for the simple fact they just don't know in my opinion

This may rub a few the wrong way but I think to many people are breeding with to much focus on "breeds" and not on the physical and behavioral conformation of the dogs being produced.

Cward-I understood exactly what you were saying about purebred VS. Full blood but saw an oppurtunity to do some math and  enjoyed the oppurtunity.

[BarrNinja]

Well Years ago a friend of mine had a 3/4 pit 1/4 cat give to him we have breed that dog back to  pit and back to pit to where there is no cat left in them but the lepoard coloring stays on the pups!!

I have been hunting along time and thank god I have never had to make any of those cross's to try and find a super dog to fit me!!
I think alot of people start out with a plain to try and get just the right amout of dog in them that they want!! What I have seen over the years of makeing these cross's they are never acruate some pups catch some are just hide pullers some are loose!!

I agree with Ugly Dog  I think most are mistake breedings!!!!

There is no way I would ever tie one of my good cur dog Gyps up to a dang bull dog!! If there was a mistake I asure you the pups would NEVER make it to the dog trade!!!

If I am going to breed a catch dog I will go with something as solid as the Bitch !! AB X AB - Pit X Pit - Dogo X Dogo  or Catch X Catch!!
Never Strike X Catch !!!

They have 2 differnt jobs!!

When I am breeding catch dogs I will look for lung - speed- handle before I look for catch!! Because when I make a catch dog cross I know for a fact they will catch I just need to add lung-Speed -handle to it!!

Useing a catch dog now that I have been useing all summer in daylight hours that does not get hot and can go for hours with out warter!! Loveing him!! He is one we breed!! He has probally caught 40 hogs this summer all during the heat of the day!!

I also look for a dog that does not pant much always got his tung in his mouth!!

Then some people don't have the heart to do away with a mistake cross!! So they end up on the dog trade and if that don't work then they end up at Walmart usally there wife and she is telly everyone they are out of hog dogs!! When I here it just makes me want to get the whole litter and do something no one else had the heart to do!!! The subdivion down the road from me is full of them most have mange and the other just roam free!! I think I know a few Boys that pick them up out of that Subdivion at around a year old and start them in a pen then post them on the dog trade here!! Just can't figure out where they get all these dogs from they always got them forsale and I never see them hunt!!  Finished Dogs if you know what I mean!!

In my opinion, there would be a heck of a lot better hog dogs in this world if everyone that ever tried to breed em had this philosophy!
Lucky crosses happen all the time but I personally don’t care about breeding dogs on just luck!!!
I tried it and it hardly ever worked for me!!!
Someone said it before me but I couldnt agree more. "Breeding good dogs aint like mixing paint".

[BigAinaBuilt]

Boarninja- Every purpose bred dog in history was bred by mixing dogs with different traits and then linebred to make those traits dominant.

[Crib]

I have to agree with Boarninja,

When producing working dogs one should strive to produce better dogs each successive generation. Crossing dogs is pretty much like starting over. You'll have no idea what you will get in successive generations, less predictablity. Thats why understanding genetics is important. Linebreeding increases predictability and gives one a better chance of selecting the right dogs to move forward with.   There is a bigger picture than just how breeds were created in the past.

[Reuben]

Lots of good points on this discussion, like crib just said. It takes many years of line breeding to develop a strain and you get to a point where you are splitting hairs to get better dogs and then you get to a point that you need a touch of new blood added to the breeding program. The sensible thing to do is to find a dog that has at least 50% of your bloodline and the other 50% to be somewhat related and that dog needs to bring something to the program that is an enhancement to your dogs. This dog needs to be of high quality as well as its parents and these dogs should look and act, hunt like your dogs. This is so that you will gain from this breeding (hopefully). Also, If you are interested in a male pup to add to your program then you need to keep as many males from this cross that you can because if you are serious about improving your line, this is what you do. The reason is obvious. You want to cull those male pups over at least one year so that you wind up with the best possible choice for the breeding program. When you outcross a line that has been bred like this you will lose a lot of what has been bred for generations in that one outcross.

My vote is to keep them pure. Hunt the cur breed you like best to strike with and catch with your favorite catch breed.

When you cross a cur or hound with a catch dog your percentage of getting what you want will probably be somewhat low and very diversified. Then you will need to select the best from this and keep it going to increase the percentage of what you are looking for...

[BarrNinja]

Boarninja- Every purpose bred dog in history was bred by mixing dogs with different traits and then linebred to make those traits dominant.

I agree with this 100% but that wasnt my point.

[leonriverboy]

I sincerely agree with both sides of this issue.  First the keep the breeds pure side:  I understand why this is done and agree with it, focus on the traits your after and stay with your line dogs.  But if I have curs and I want a pack of rcds that are not straight pit I am going to breed my grittiest cur to the most athletic cd I can find.  I will breed my own dogs because the best dogs I have owned I bred and raised myself and in the long run it's cheaper.  The last time I did this I got just what I wanted.  Some people will say this is luck but it's not it called hybrid vigor (f-1 cross).

Other people will say don't run rcds you just need better curs.  I love to bay up the hog and then send in the cd and for most hogs that works great.  But on the hogs that want stop for hell or high water the only way to stop them is with rcds.  Some people will say that there dogs will say with the running hog until they are stopped and if the hog tries to run they will chew his rear off and they may do this on some hogs but not all of them.  That's when you bring in the rcds.   If you have good stock they are going to produce good stock even if it's a cross.  I'm not afraid of crossing curs and pits it has work well for me in the past and I know it will continue to work for me.  That's not to say I want continue to breed pure ybmcs and pur pits.  I am making this cross for a particular reason to catch running boar hogs that refuse to stop. 

[KaufmanHogDogger]

dont no what yall will think of this cross but its a ridgeback/dogo. my male rr will wind and bay a hog short range.. will catch with the cath dog and will stop a hog when running he is a azz grabber... the dogo is sure enough a catch dog and will be lead in... what yall think....

[Crib]

I sincerely agree with both sides of this issue.  First the keep the breeds pure side:  I understand why this is done and agree with it, focus on the traits your after and stay with your line dogs.  But if I have curs and I want a pack of rcds that are not straight pit I am going to breed my grittiest cur to the most athletic cd I can find.  I will breed my own dogs because the best dogs I have owned I bred and raised myself and in the long run it's cheaper.  The last time I did this I got just what I wanted.  Some people will say this is luck but it's not it called hybrid vigor (f-1 cross).

Other people will say don't run rcds you just need better curs.  I love to bay up the hog and then send in the cd and for most hogs that works great.  But on the hogs that want stop for hell or high water the only way to stop them is with rcds.  Some people will say that there dogs will say with the running hog until they are stopped and if the hog tries to run they will chew his rear off and they may do this on some hogs but not all of them.  That's when you bring in the rcds.   If you have good stock they are going to produce good stock even if it's a cross.  I'm not afraid of crossing curs and pits it has work well for me in the past and I know it will continue to work for me.  That's not to say I want continue to breed pure ybmcs and pur pits.  I am making this cross for a particular reason to catch running boar hogs that refuse to stop.  

This is a good response, and I can understand fully your reasoning. I know of another hunter here who has a similar situation and does the same thing. This leads me to think that mabe there isn’t a solid pure bred RCD out there? Dogos are supposed to perform like that, my guess is they aren’t working out as a whole.

Thing is that hogs are gonna react whichever way, run or fight. Trying to change the dogs around to meet these different responses will have one chasing their tail forever. A person decides on one path for a certain behavior then the hogs get conditioned to behaving differently now one has to adjust breeding other stuff in to try and meet that.

Hogs are smart, so one has to outsmart them. How about adjusting the tactics rather than constantly crossbreeding?

One way I heard of people baiting them in around the trail cam so they get conditioned to the camera flash then spot lighting them and cut the dogs loose. This method is working so well they are catchin too many hogs and their dogs are getting cut down and killed. The hogs are pure or nearly pure eurasions too. This way one can have a pure bloodline of working dogs, both bay and catch dogs and the benefits of maintaining dogs that way.

Just a suggestion that came from hog hunters.

[leonriverboy]

One thing about these two breeding processes (pure bred curs and cross bred rcds) are not mutually exclusive.  I currently have both breeding programs going, pure bred ybmcs and cur x bull for rcds.  The places I hunt I know how the hogs react to dogs and I hunt accordingly. 

[Rockin-P-Ranch]

As alot of people here know Iam a BMC man all the way. With all the different BMC breeds out there why would I want to breed to anything else. If I need to add new blood Im sure I could fine someone that would want to split a litter with me. How about you Mr BoarNinja.