your opinions of why we cross the way we do...

[uglydog]

Most purebred dogs came into existance from crossbreeding other pure bred dogs, such as the Dogo and have not been pure all that many years, as why there are so many "types". Ho w many generations does it take to make it a PureBreed or to invent a Pure Breed?

[Crib]

Way I understand it from talking to k9 geneticists the dogs have to be able to breed true to type. The dogs have to be able to throw themselves even in an outcross. If one can maintain a tight bloodline of a certain type of dog, thats how it begins.

[Crib]

BTW great thread, very good responses from everyone

[BigAinaBuilt]

Ugly Dog- If we started off with a "pure" Catahoula and X it with a "pure" pit and then perceded to X out the Pit at 7 generations bred back to a pure Catahoula the % would be 99.21875% Catahoula and 0.78125 Pit and if doing this "responsibly" we're looking at around 14 years of breeding to get here, Breeding the dogs at 2 years old.

[Reuben]

bigainbuilt,

What is the point of breeding 7 generations of a cross just to wind up with a 99.22% catahoula? Might as well just breed pure cats. Unless the idea is to capture certain qualities from the bulldog and making sure they are passed on as dominate traits. Wouldn't this make this line a different breed? In my mind I think that it would be a different strain of cats, otherwise why do it. I think this is a good question, maybe someone has a good theory or answer. If part of the answer is to capture certain qualities from the bulldog, will this change the 99.22% cat back to a lower number? Inquiring minds want to know....
By the way, I like your math skills...

[BigAinaBuilt]

Reuben- I started at a 50/50 dog due to this being the highest equal percentage possible and then broke it down until I got under 1 % Pitbull(Pretty close to "pure"). The only reason I could think of doing this would be to add grit or game to a line of Catahoula that lacked it to begin or to bulk a dog from the Mcmillin line. I did Cwards on paper but went with the calculator for UglyDogs question. 

[uglydog]

Okay, this is getting INTERESTING TOO ME!

here is a scenario - wanting to put your caculator to work!

take two unrelated dogs, both are 50/50, dog A= Plott/Catahoula X Dog B Airedeale/BMC, So say you bred dog A to Dog B, how would you breed, how many times, to be able to call it a purebred dog?

[BarrNinja]

As alot of people here know Iam a BMC man all the way. With all the different BMC breeds out there why would I want to breed to anything else. If I need to add new blood Im sure I could fine someone that would want to split a litter with me. How about you Mr BoarNinja.

This is how I feel about all hunting and working breeds these days Mr. P but I didn’t always think like this. I am a little partial to BMC's myself.

When I have been breeding good dogs for many years like you have Mr. P, I will through some more skin in this debate. Until then, if anyone wants to know how to water down a good line of cur dogs and dramatically up your percentage of culls just give me a call. I can show you how to do it real fast with cross breeding and breeding best to best. I use to be real good at it but at least my culls never made it to the classified adds.

 leonriverboy, I think you are probably on to a good cross that suits you. I wish all the best with it. I wont deny that cross breeding can produce some good dogs and Im not completely closed minded to it. I just wont be bothering with it myself anymore. I just dont like having to feed that many dogs just to cull most of them in the end.

[duece24]

The discussion is really heating up.

I think crossbreeding happens mostly because some people don't have two great bmc to put together, but they will have a great bmc and a great cat(or some other cur), so they put those two together.

I think they way To go is to take two dogs that are similar in most ways. I believe to keep good dogs going u have to breed dogs that have many of the same traits but one or the other will have something u want to add in. U can't insure that u will get that added trait but by putting two dogs that have the majority of traits u want u will at least get that. At least u get what u started with, bur here's the kicker..take one of the pups from the f1 cross and take it back to the parent that had that extra trait now u have upped ur chances of getting that extra trait without losing all ur original traits.

As far as adding catch dog to the cuts. I got one and I like the cross. Actually every catchdog/baydog cross I've personally hunted with I've really liked

[Reuben]

We about wore this subject out but it has been very interesting and fun, here is my final input on this one....

Breeding in let's say some pit  to plott  and then the goal is to keep 25% pit to keep the grit level up to a desired level.

The idea is good but some of the problems I have observed have been that the plott may not have the grit or the plott has the grit but he was a fluke because the rest of his relatives were bay dogs that never laid a tooth on a hog. The right plott dog has to have the grit as well as the relatives so that we can possibly increase our chances of getting what we want. Then we line breed off the very best.

The pit should have the best qualities for catching,handling, stamina and dog friendly, and the other important traits should be to be built more for speed to compliment the plott so that the result should be RCD or strike dogs that can sure enough stop most any hog....

The other problem I have seen is that what some people think is a good hog dog the next breeder/hunter may consider the dog a cull. This is what makes the world go round and round....

[BigAinaBuilt]

Ugly Dog- It would also take 7 generations after the original 50/50 cross bred back to a "pure blood" to bring the % to (I will use the Plott as the example) 99.4140625% Plott with 0.1953125%, Catahoula 0.1953125% Airedale and 0.1953125% BMC.

[Mike]

The other problem I have seen is that what some people think is a good hog dog the next breeder/hunter may consider the dog a cull. This is what makes the world go round and round....

Reuben,

You hit the nail on the head right there...

[duece24]

The other problem I have seen is that what some people think is a good hog dog the next breeder/hunter may consider the dog a cull. This is what makes the world go round and round....

Reuben,

You hit the nail on the head right there...

i agree with this statement right here completely...but on the other side of the coin when i get to the point where i can readily and easily keep the majority of the pups i produce i will make breedings for me. my opinion is that when you start trying to breed for the masses you have set your self up for failure and you haven't even started yet. because like rueben stated, every person hunts a little different and every person likes their dogs a little different. with this game that we play it is so very hard to please the masses BECAUSE there are so many different terrians, styles, and formulas for success.

when i was breeding pits. the thing that made so many great dogs is that people made breedings with a certain "get" in mind but they made the breedings mostly for themselves and then put a few on the market. they really didnt' care if liked this dog adn that dog or style of dog becasue tehy were going to test their dogs and show what they could do. the best survived and were bred, wihch is why pits are pretty easy to predict what you are going to get  when you breed them.

my feeling is that i will make a breeding with a certain "get" in mind keep the majority of the pups put a few on the market and stick mine in teh woods and SHOW what they can do. you still might not like the style of my dogss, and that is fine because i am making the breedings for me. and i'm sure sooner or later there will be a few people that are looking for dogs that hunt like mine do..jmo

[chainrated]

There is no doubt that line breeding for what kind of dog you want will up your percentages of getting that dog.. You should be able to produce a higher percentage of what you think a " good " dog is.. That being said you might get a "great" dog from anywhere. If you are going to make a cross like say 1/2 cat 1/2 bulldog or 1/2 bmc/ 1/2 bulldog,  if you take a line bred cat and cross it to a linebred bulldog your percentages would be way better than breeding a scatterbred cat to a scatterbred bulldog. Or even a linebred cat to a scatterbred bulldog.. Line breeding locks in the specific traits you want in a dog and if you take 2 dogs that have been linebred for those traits then your chances of getting the dogs that you want out of the cross go way up.. I have some on the ground right now that are 7 weeks old. I'll let yall know if it "worked" in about 8 months..

[Crib]

From what I have seen the guys/gals who develop and maintain a line thru linebreeding generally have more to say about whats what on a dog. The dues they pay in working out the problems in a line of dogs really, really comes across when you speak to them, they just radiate dog knowledge. IMO that’s the difference btw making dogs that will hunt, and breeding hunting dogs that reproduce themselves. If I get a dog from someone I want the best chance for that dog to be what they say it parents are since its my burden to feed and house. JM 2ct

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

From what I have seen the guys/gals who develop and maintain a line thru linebreeding generally have more to say about whats what on a dog. The dues they pay in working out the problems in a line of dogs really, really comes across when you speak to them, they just radiate dog knowledge. IMO that’s the difference btw making dogs that will hunt, and breeding hunting dogs that reproduce themselves. If I get a dog from someone I want the best chance for that dog to be what they say it parents are since its my burden to feed and house. JM 2ct

Great post.

[BarrNinja]

From what I have seen the guys/gals who develop and maintain a line thru linebreeding generally have more to say about whats what on a dog. The dues they pay in working out the problems in a line of dogs really, really comes across when you speak to them, they just radiate dog knowledge. IMO that’s the difference btw making dogs that will hunt, and breeding hunting dogs that reproduce themselves. If I get a dog from someone I want the best chance for that dog to be what they say it parents are since its my burden to feed and house. JM 2ct

So true!
 My favorite part is the weird looks I got from these folks when I "thought" I was radiating dog knowledge around them! lol I learned to shut up and listen but it took me a while because I am hard headed and had an attitude about it.
I aint trying to be down on folks at all and I sure dont have the right to look down my nose at anyone who tries to breed a hog dog after what I have done in the past. I usually always keep my mouth shut on a breeding post but the times I do comment, it’s in hopes that I can keep someone from all the grief, culls, and wasted years that I went through.
Good luck on your crosses folks.

[Crib]

Thanks guys,

Keep posting Boarninja, everyone has a right to their opinion. Your not here to insult anyone, I'm not either.  I for one found your posts refreshing. I just can't read to the end of a post when someone talks about a breeding that my girlfriend could do and get the same exact dogs and she doesnt know the 1st thing about dogs or breeding. I know of guys here who been dogmen for a long time and agree whole heartedly with this angle. In the end to each his own.

[uglydog]

Okay that what gets me, as the math end of breeding don't natch up to abilty to point out/reproduce traits, as being 100%, I don't know if what I am saying makes any sense, Forget about breeds  just for a minute, you had 2 dogs for your baseline that all have similiar traits, styles, (not talking about appearance) but good physical attributes that also contribute to hunting abilities as stamina, ect., If you were trying to create a dog, that absolute what you wanted (close to perfect in your opinion) Can you do it in seven generations to reproduce consistant offspring that match the original two specimens? if the can consistant reproduce the same thing then can you create a "new breed" in 7 generations, is point where I am trying to get too?

[duece24]

uglydog i think with the right dogs you can have dogs that reproduce them selves at a level in less than 7generations, but that doesn't always mean its a "new breed". kinda like your amerigos. i think it's safe to say that the amerigos are pretty true to form, the "get" is pretty consistant, but i would say they are a new breed yet. kinda like the catdo and the catabull. these two crosses when you breed them back to their respective crosses are pretty true to form, but i still would call them a new breed.

i read somewhere that it takes a least 3 different breeds to be classified as a new breed and their were percentages that were assigned to the three different breeds. i can't remember where i saw it or what the percentages are...personally i would call them what they are and if in 10-15yrs you are strickly breeding that cross and no matter what you cross it with you can see the traits from "your breed" show through AND people are no longer saying that is a cross of x,y,z, but are saying that is a "insert breed name". then i think you have successfully created a new breed.