Line-Breeding Project

[Mike]

Mike, if you take any of boarbusters 11 then you have to take some of my 9. I think bb67 let my Bell dog that I got from caughtandhobbled get violated while she stayed the night at his house when I was down there, that makes him half responsible for mine. Just playin, good luck with you're cross.

Ha ha... you took more home from Texas than you were expecting!

[Mike]

U use the unrelated dog when ur dogs begin to lose that pop. When ur litters begin to be a touch below what u normally produce introduce the unrelated pup. That litter will be what ur used to seeing. Take those pups back to ur tight bred dogs and breed as u feel until they get 'stale' again

If u are inbreeding and linebreeding there will come a time when u will need to introduce some new blood. If u keep it too tight too long ur blood will get stale. This is what we saw when we were breeding pits. When u take a tight bred dog introduce some new blood our pups were dynamite. Then when we took those pups back to our linebred dogs our consistency went back up

Josh, that makes sense, but it will be a long time before the blood gets that tight.

[Circle C]

Mr Mud,

    If my dogs were eyeing her, it's cuz they are lesbos. Mine were all females, so you can pin the "baby daddy" badge on any of mine.

[duece24]

Point taken Duce but with the variations he has to work with he could go on for 20  years before he gets stale and still keep what he like imo.

But I do get you what you are saying but he is starting with a bigger gene pool and much more diversity vs game bred apbt breeding programs.

cool...i don't really know the gene pool mike is dealing with so you are right if he has a large gene pool then he may not need any unrelated dogs for sometime.

it seems you are well started in what you are trying to achieve, mike, so keep it going and keep us posted. i've hunted with ray's dog joe..that's a BIG pretty dog there..

[Bryant]

Good luck with your endeavor, Mike.  Nothing more rewarding than going out catching hogs with fine dogs you've bred and raised.

We spoke about this the other evening when you were here, but I've heard negative things about breeding too close for a long time.  While I agree, you can't do it generation after generation I've personally witnessed three litters of brother-sister, mother-father crosses that made exceptional dogs.  I tend to believe more of what my eyes see, than of what my ears hear.

[UNDERDOG]

We spoke about this the other evening when you were here, but I've heard negative things about breeding too close for a long time.  While I agree, you can't do it generation after generation I've personally witnessed three litters of brother-sister, mother-father crosses that made exceptional dogs.  I tend to believe more of what my eyes see, than of what my ears hear.

You are right Bryant, your eyes will tell ya ha ha ...it can be done with success and carried on for a good long time with culling and selection.

[Circle C]

Josh,

    Ray's Joe dog, and Mike's black dog somehow ended up being giants. 

Here's the Grand dam, and dam

Here's a couple pics of their brother and sisters, that are more average sized dogs.

[matt_aggie04]

Those two pups pictured and Clay's Riley dog are head and shoulders better dogs than the others out of that litter.  Both at less than 9 months old were on their way to making a strike dog.  I would like to hear someone who has done a LOT of line breeding tell me how they cull.  To me it is tempting to just keep the ones that by a year old are really making it happen and get rid of the others but maybe that is too hasty.  I know there are a lot of stories of late bloomers becoming outstanding dogs but my experiences have taught me that most jam dogs I have seen the last few years are all early starting, fast maturing dogs and personally I value that alot!  I don't want to wait 14-18 months for a dog to start contributing.  If by 12 months they are not contributing and showing me they have the drive and want to then they are a cull and are not going to be used in a breeding program for dang sure.  Not trying to steer the thread off corse just kinda asking a general question.

[duece24]

I inbred and linebred pits for around 15 yrs. I just stopped breeding pits with my friends back home. Matt u cull based off of what u r looking for in a dog. It seems u already have a criteria of what u want ur line to look like. Fast starting dogs that mature quick. Harsher dog doesn't look like that cull them. That way u are only breeding the dogs that are farting fast so u are upping ir chances of having full litters of fast staring pups.

We all know of the dogs that start late and end up being good dogs. Some people are willing to wait for that greatness others aren't. Seems u are in the later group nothing wrong with that  if u want fast starting dogs only breed fast starting dogs.

Wheni was breed pits heavy if by a yr thy weren't 'on' they wre culled. We eventually had litters of dogs that by a yr were fully 'turned 'on'' just takes selective breeding.

[Reuben]

Those two pups pictured and Clay's Riley dog are head and shoulders better dogs than the others out of that litter.  Both at less than 9 months old were on their way to making a strike dog.  I would like to hear someone who has done a LOT of line breeding tell me how they cull.  To me it is tempting to just keep the ones that by a year old are really making it happen and get rid of the others but maybe that is too hasty.  I know there are a lot of stories of late bloomers becoming outstanding dogs but my experiences have taught me that most jam dogs I have seen the last few years are all early starting, fast maturing dogs and personally I value that alot!  I don't want to wait 14-18 months for a dog to start contributing.  If by 12 months they are not contributing and showing me they have the drive and want to then they are a cull and are not going to be used in a breeding program for dang sure.  Not trying to steer the thread off corse just kinda asking a general question.

I line bred and inbred and culled hard for 15 years on a line of mtn curs. I started with good dogs and toward the end most any puppy would make a decent hog dog but many were early starting and very good dogs.


I  was never in it for the money so I kept about 4 pups from a litter and then culled down to 1 or 2.  I tested the pups at 8 weeks and throughout puppyhood, this included baying. willingness to swim and I took them out to the woods at 4 months to see which ones rolled out. I made sure that they were not rolling out because they were following the lead of another puppy etc... etc... I made sure that they were early starters. At 10 months I wanted them to strike and run with the big dogs. If they came back after 15 minutes it was a major concern for me. My reasons for all of this was that if I have to wait until the pup is 1.5 years of age then the offspring will be the same or the line will be regressing. I just couldn't keep a pup for that long to decide if it was a cull or not. Same thing if you have to use a training collar excessively. You will produce pups that need the same form of training. When you get to the point that you need new blood then: 1. find a dog that is somewhat related and has the same qualities as your dogs and possibly bring something to the table to enhance the strain, or 2, breed your best gyp to a stud that is somewhat related and keep as many pups from that cross and then select the best possible pup to breed into your strain so that you bring in a small amount of new blood but does not really change your strain. The idea is to give the strain a boost, not to lose what you have strived for. This is how I did it and it worked for me. You just have to call it like it is and to not have kennel blindness. It takes a lot of money to do this. I'm retired now so will not do this again.

IMO, I think that the best thing to do is to get 4 or 5 friends with the same goals and each keep at least several dogs and develop a breeding program that includes a written hunting standard that describes how the dog/gyp should hunt and how it is built to include the size and weight. I would like to be a part of something like this....I am partial to the MTN CUR though...

[duece24]

Rueben this is exactly what I was referring to in the dogo thread. Getting several people that are like minded to work a strain of dogs is the only way to truly impact a breed or strain. It's just too much work for one man or woman.

[Mike]

Now here's what i'm not sure on with the Tweety grandpups pictured above. Their sire would be an outcross into the line... nothing to do with the two foundation males. I think i'll wait and see how the Tweety/Buck litter turns out, then breed Tweety back to a son from her and Winchester next year. That should should lock the blood in from the three foundation dogs, giving us plenty of pups to work with.

If those don't work out, maybe cross one the grandpups in later on down the road... if they make the grade?

This is all just thoughts running through my mind... it may turn into a big cluster and a bunch of culls.

[Reuben]

Now here's what i'm not sure on with the Tweety grandpups pictured above. Their sire would be an outcross into the line... nothing to do with the two foundation males. I think i'll wait and see how the Tweety/Buck litter turns out, then breed Tweety back to a son from her and Winchester next year. That should should lock the blood in from the three foundation dogs, giving us plenty of pups to work with.

If those don't work out, maybe cross one the grandpups in later on down the road... if they make the grade?

This is all just thoughts running through my mind... it may turn into a big cluster and a bunch of culls.

I think it's ok to start out with a certain percentage (higher) of culls as long as you select the best pups... In my experience I sometimes didn't always pick the best ones but did pretty good about picking a good one. Just give away or sell the pups you don't keep that you believe could possibly turn out as good hunting dogs that are worthy of breeding to hunters that will hunt them and stay in contact with you. Just have the understanding that you want to breed the gyp/stud of your choice to this dog that turned out so that you can get a few pups. This way you raise the probability of aquiring the best for breeding.  This is my 2 cents worth....

I believe that your idea's are good as to what you are trying to accomplish.

[make-em-squeel]

A good point to remember is that when line breeding you bring out both desireable and non desireable traits....when the bad traits come out (that were always there even though not seen) that is the worst time to out cross! That will ensure they are always passed on, instead get the pup out of the litter that doesnt show the bad traits and line breed it, it will cut the the bad traits out forever...I will try to find the article on that. Silverton boar dogs knows alot on this subject if I remember right

[sdillard]

By what i have read on here Cward does alot of this with his dogs im sure he could help

[Hogboy]

Seems like Tweety throws some pretty good dogs no matter who she is bred to......and they all seem to turn on rather quickly.  I will be very interested to see how this experiment goes.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

This is just some of my personal thoughts,

I like an early starter, first look at a pig at 4 months, trained untill a year old, and by then they better be freaking out to get to a pig. If not, cull.

With the broad range of genetics you have, breed them real tight at first, selecting for conformation and performance, keeping the whole litter untill they are a year old (that's the only way you know what you've got, look for consistency through the litter in all things) keep the best Male and female from each pairing at 18 months, cull the rest.

I always want to breed back up the line when I can, sire to daughter or grand sire to grand daughter. I like that better than a litter mate pairing.

Once you get pretty close to what you want, out cross every third cross, that way you can breed real tight twice then out cross, and repeat. If your blood is good and you have selected you could be close to what you want in 6-7 generations.

Don't settle for less than what you feel is perfect. I am line breeding two different lines right now and its a lot of work and a lot of dog food, but well worth the time.

here is  good read http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

For me personally line breeding is done to set the traits you want so that your outcrosses will be very consistent and have the hybrid vigor we all want. So to me line breeding is not an end unto its self, but a way to produce out cross dogs as the final goal.

[Mike]

Thanks everyone. From what i've read and people i've talked to... everyone does things a little different, with the same end result.

Paul, you mention outcrossing every third breeding, what do you outcross to? Some people hardly ever outcross and some have never outcrossed from what i've gathered.

[Reuben]

This is just some of my personal thoughts,

I like an early starter, first look at a pig at 4 months, trained untill a year old, and by then they better be freaking out to get to a pig. If not, cull.

With the broad range of genetics you have, breed them real tight at first, selecting for conformation and performance, keeping the whole litter untill they are a year old (that's the only way you know what you've got, look for consistency through the litter in all things) keep the best Male and female from each pairing at 18 months, cull the rest.

I always want to breed back up the line when I can, sire to daughter or grand sire to grand daughter. I like that better than a litter mate pairing.

Once you get pretty close to what you want, out cross every third cross, that way you can breed real tight twice then out cross, and repeat. If your blood is good and you have selected you could be close to what you want in 6-7 generations.

Don't settle for less than what you feel is perfect. I am line breeding two different lines right now and its a lot of work and a lot of dog food, but well worth the time.

here is  good read http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

For me personally line breeding is done to set the traits you want so that your outcrosses will be very consistent and have the hybrid vigor we all want. So to me line breeding is not an end unto its self, but a way to produce out cross dogs as the final goal.

Thanks for posting the link for the linebreeding article on the GSP. It was very informative. It refreshed my memory because it has been a long time since I have done any reading on breeding better dogs.

Unless I misunderstood the article, it is totally against outcrossing because of what you lose in the process. Linebreeding is the way to go as long as we select properly. To me it is about picking the right pups and never comprimising like I stated in one of my previous posts.

IMO breeding for color would be easy because it is visual and anyone could probably do it.... But, when we breed for hunting ability, brains and conformation it becomes a different ball game. By the time we analyze and write down all the definitions  for hunting ability so that we can breed toward those goals, the list would be getting long... Then you factor in the other traits and it becomes a  bigger challenge.

Like I stated before, it is my opinion that outcrossing would have to be done with a dog that is somewhat related and looks and acts similar to your line. I would venture to say that it needs to carry at least 50% relations to your strain and then breed the best offspring back into the line and not breed the distant relative any more to your dogs (a one time deal).

[leonriverboy]

I really enjoyed the westwind article, very informative.  Anyone considering a line program should read and study it thanks for the info.