Line-Breeding Project

[BA-IV]

The article was great, I appreciate it...I never chime in on conversations like this, because I don't have first hand experience...Now I have read enough on here and talked to a few men who do it religiously with the results being a great breeding program and great dogs...Im on the outside looking in so I really don't have an opinioin, I kinda like to take a lil here and there and see what best sits with me so to say...Now with the line breeding and todays technology, mostly the Garmin, one should be able to cull harder and more importantly cull smarter which is important...Each dog from the same breeding or from three generations down is gonna bring something special to the table, and its all personal how you what your looking for in a dog, and with line breeding you will get more consistency...I plan on fiddling with line breeding, but first I gotta find a dog worth line breeding  Good luck Mike

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Paul, you mention outcrossing every third breeding, what do you outcross to? Some people hardly ever outcross and some have never outcrossed from what i've gathered.

When I out-cross I look for a dog that is built exactly the way I want, and/or is a little better than my line. The out-cross dog's hunting style should match my line's style but be better in some regard. So the out cross dog is just like my line but better in some respect. I don't care if it is somehow related to my line but I want it to also be a tight bread dog. The once every 3rd cross is to add something from an outstanding dog and ad hybrid vigor. If your genetics are really good you can make fast progress with this approach.

I am not saying this is the only way to breed dogs, just what has worked for my family over the years.

[duece24]

sliverton that is how we used to do it. about every third or fourth linebred/inbred breeding we would introduce something new. normally we tried to get a dog that was 25% related but not always. our criteria was that they had to be either 25% related and the 75% be wound up tight or a tightly bred dog. this was for us to even consider breeding to that dog or gyp. then we looked at the ablity level of the dog. did it have all the traits that our dogs had, if it did how did it measure up to our dogs ability level, then did this new dog have anything new to add, finally we looked at the parents, and grandparents of the dog. if the parents and grandparents weren't consistant producers then we didn't fool with the dog because you are introducing dogs that have a low % rate and that will weaken you line. we NEVER bred to freaks. freaks very seldom if ever reproduce themselves, so we didn't fool with them. we also looked at the production rate of the stud or the gyp. if they met all the above criteria but as an individual they weren't through high %'s then we didn't fool with them either. back then it was costing about a G to breed to great producing studs or to studs that had won alot. we didn't get caught up in the hoopla of bloodlines we made educated decisions and we were producing at really high rates because we were so picky about what we bred to. we had many people that starting hating on us because we wouldn't breed to their gyps or we would let their studs breed our gyps. we weren't about the money we were bout having consistant dogs and when people knew they had dogs that came off our yard they new they were getting top notch stuff, or better yet when they came up against one of our dogs they knew they were in for it....it's really not hard to do if you have people that an put egos aside and agree on breeding only the dogs that show the traits you want and not playing favorites with dogs...

[Reuben]

This is just some of my personal thoughts,

I like an early starter, first look at a pig at 4 months, trained untill a year old, and by then they better be freaking out to get to a pig. If not, cull.

With the broad range of genetics you have, breed them real tight at first, selecting for conformation and performance, keeping the whole litter untill they are a year old (that's the only way you know what you've got, look for consistency through the litter in all things) keep the best Male and female from each pairing at 18 months, cull the rest.

I always want to breed back up the line when I can, sire to daughter or grand sire to grand daughter. I like that better than a litter mate pairing.

Once you get pretty close to what you want, out cross every third cross, that way you can breed real tight twice then out cross, and repeat. If your blood is good and you have selected you could be close to what you want in 6-7 generations.

Don't settle for less than what you feel is perfect. I am line breeding two different lines right now and its a lot of work and a lot of dog food, but well worth the time.

here is  good read http://www.westwindgsps.com/linebreeding.htm

For me personally line breeding is done to set the traits you want so that your outcrosses will be very consistent and have the hybrid vigor we all want. So to me line breeding is not an end unto its self, but a way to produce out cross dogs as the final goal.

Thanks for posting the link for the linebreeding article on the GSP. It was very informative. It refreshed my memory because it has been a long time since I have done any reading on breeding better dogs.

Unless I misunderstood the article, it is totally against outcrossing because of what you lose in the process. Linebreeding is the way to go as long as we select properly. To me it is about picking the right pups and never comprimising like I stated in one of my previous posts.

IMO breeding for color would be easy because it is visual and anyone could probably do it.... But, when we breed for hunting ability, brains and conformation it becomes a different ball game. By the time we analyze and write down all the definitions  for hunting ability so that we can breed toward those goals, the list would be getting long... Then you factor in the other traits and it becomes a  bigger challenge.

Like I stated before, it is my opinion that outcrossing would have to be done with a dog that is somewhat related and looks and acts similar to your line. I would venture to say that it needs to carry at least 50% relations to your strain and then breed the best offspring back into the line and not breed the distant relative any more to your dogs (a one time deal).

DUUUUUDE,

You said it all right there.....

[Mike]

Paul, one more question. Are you line breeding your cat/plott dogs? If so, do you outcross to another cat/plott or a purebred cat or plott?

It will probably be a several years before I need to outcross, but I don't think i'll find dogs bred just like these.

[TShelly]

Hey Mike, interesting piece and the pups sound really great.. I know it'll be a while before you look to outcross but when you do let me know.. I can put you onto a half brother to Winchester out of Perry black dogs or an even better young dog out of the same blood

[uglydog]

Tshelley, where do you know of a half brother to Winchester?

[Mike]

Hey Mike, interesting piece and the pups sound really great.. I know it'll be a while before you look to outcross but when you do let me know.. I can put you onto a half brother to Winchester out of Perry black dogs or an even better young dog out of the same blood

Thanks Tony.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Mike, I am just starting to line breed this set of dogs, it took a while to find the perfect set of females to cross with Jessie. I would want to outcross with a Straight Catahoula. I would be unsure about adding a straight Plott back into the mix because I want these dogs to be dead silent. I would consider a Plott/ Catahoula out cross but there is a lot of genetic veriation in a 50/50 cross dog and I would avoid that if I could.

My Cat/Plott line is based off of three dogs. Jessie, Plott/ Catahoula; Cat, Plott/ Catahoula; Connie, straight Catahoula. All three dogs are unrelated but outstanding individuals, All will rig and all will cast, cold noses and great style. All with great speed. Flaws in these dogs: Cat hunts at a trot and therefore does not road well, but she is the fastest dog I own. Connie and Jessie are perfect dogs in my eye. That's just some background on the 3 dogs.

1st cross was Jessie/ Cat, keep all 4 pups 3 male 1 female. They are now 1 yr old. The 3 males are outstanding(Stolie being the best), the female is good but immature(like her sire was at that age).

2nd cross was Jessie/ Connie, I kept one female pup from this litter(placed two with friends), she is 4 months and as good a pup at this age as I have bred (Bella).

next planned breeding's, Stolie/Cat, son/mother, looking for a Male and female to keep and tighten up the blood.
Jessie/ Connie, because I need a male from this pairing and this pairing nicked very well.
Jessie/ Bella,Father/ daughter, if she proves herself, to tighten up the blood.

 After these pairing I will look for one outcross with a straight Catahoula male out of Connie's line. ( I have two outstanding males, Frog and Bull, from a Punchy/Connie pairing that are making strong dogs that would fit this outcross if they are still alive).

I don't think I will add any outside Plott blood to this line, I want to keep it 1/4 to 1/2 Plott.

That's enough work to keep me busy for next few years....

  

[Mike]

Sounds like a good plan Paul.

I'll do the mother/son cross next year, then wait another year on the next breeding. That will give me two years to evaluate this litter I have now.

[Reuben]

IMO, it is not linebreeding when you outcross every 2 or 3 genarations after the strain has been developed. The dog or gyp used to freshen up the line should look and hunt similarly to the strain and be a relative on one side of your line. The pups should be bred back into the strain and the dog or gyp used to freshen the line taken out of the program. Then every 3 generations or when you feel the need to freshen the line, repeat the last step...

In reality, when you do it this way it is still linebreeding....

The more generations you do this the more often you will feel the need to freshen the strain, but always with a small percentage of an outcrossed dog.

This is only half of it, the other half is to test the pups, dogs, and cull hard.  Eventually, the worst dogs in the yard should be able to do it alone but does not necessarily qualify them as breeders.

[BarrNinja]

I'll certainly be following this, may try it myself one day... let you do it first to see if it works!

  Dang! Noah, we may actually get you over to the dark side one day!!!lol

A very interesting thread for me.  Best of luck with your plan and litters Mike. It will be pretty dang neat to see your results in the litters to come.

[firemedic]

I've really enjoyed reading this thread,....since I don't actually know most of you guys from TX, I'm still learning your dogs and your hunting styles. I'd like to know what are Mike's dogs that are in this project.....by that I mean what sort of curs are they.....hate to come off as a dummy here, but I'm still rather new and just trying to catch up. Thanks guys!

[Mike]

Firemedic,

The foundation female is this project is my Tweety dog. She's a black catahoula that came from cow dog stock out near LaGrange, Tx. The Winchester male, who is dead now, is a brindle cur that goes back to some old East Texas blood near me in Coldspring. The third male is Buck, he's a yella BMC. All three have produced good dogs, so I believe we have something to work with. I've seen and bred good dogs in the past that didn't produce anything... that's why I didn't want to fool with puppies again.

[Reuben]

IMO, it is not linebreeding when you outcross every 2 or 3 genarations after the strain has been developed. The dog or gyp used to freshen up the line should look and hunt similarly to the strain and be a relative on one side of your line. The pups should be bred back into the strain and the dog or gyp used to freshen the line taken out of the program. Then every 3 generations or when you feel the need to freshen the line, repeat the last step...

In reality, when you do it this way it is still linebreeding....

The more generations you do this the more often you will feel the need to freshen the strain, but always with a small percentage of an outcrossed dog.

This is only half of it, the other half is to test the pups, dogs, and cull hard.  Eventually, the worst dogs in the yard should be able to do it alone but does not necessarily qualify them as breeders.

After my last post I realized that I should take this to the point where the breeding is in an ongoing mode or at least to keep it going until you decide to stop...

Once we get to the point that the dogs are all related then stagger the age of the males and females so that they are not getting old at the same time.

It is time to freshen the strain when there are too many brothers/sisters from the same parents.

Once we are somewhat satisfied with the strain and there is no need to breed you can choose not to breed at all for as long as the pack is young enough and healthy, or, you can breed a few litters every now and then to place in good hunting homes with the understanding that if the pup turns out above average that you can get a pup or two from a cross of my choosing.

Also by breeding a litter every now and then when you are looking at the pups before placing we have the opurtunity to select a pup that really suits us and also you get to verify what the dogs are producing.

At the beginning I bred a brother to sister and then bred the females on their first heat. I did this the first two generations so that I could turn over the bloodline as quickly as possible. The idea was to somewhat purify the gene pool within a few years. Right or wrong this is how I did it because I wanted to increase my percentage chance of getting high quality dogs right away. I was dealing with early starting dogs so I felt comfortable doing this.

I can't say that this is the right way or the only way to breed better dogs but this is how I did it and it worked for me.

My suggestion is that if someone wants to try something like this to form a co-op or team of men and women with the same goals so that the labor and expenses can be kept down. Not only that but you can keep more dogs which will give you more to choose from.

[firemedic]

Thanks Mike, this helps a bunch, as most of you guys know each other in person or have known of each other, it's kinda hard for a guy from Bama to keep up with it all. Sounds like you have something to work with there so maybe you'll get a bit of luck and hit the jackpot with these pups. I do appreciate the info on your dogs.

[Mike]

The Tweety x Obama cross has been made... this a mother/son cross. I have one more planned breeding to Tweety, that will be to her grandson, my Hunter dog, next year. At 2 1/2 years old, he's on his way to making a good one.

The Tweety x Buck pups just turned a year old last month. All have been late bloomers, just like we were told Buck's offspring usually were. I'm down to three, this coming coming year will show what they're made off.

Underdog and I also picked up two, 8 month old male granpups of Tweety. They're out of Obama and some old local blood. Looking forward to getting them in the woods.

[noelle]

lol mother/son is cuttin it close aint it Whats your opinion on breeding this molly gyp back with the winchester lines? or possibly one of my own dogs? have any of her littermates had any pups yet?

[Mike]

As long as you don't make a habit out of it. From what I gather, the best way to reproduce a dog is a mother/son or father/daughter cross.

Judging by your other posts, it doesn't sound like the Molly dog needs to be bred because she's inconsistent?

None of her littermates have been bred, my Hunter dog will be bred next year... he's proven himself breed worthy.

[noelle]

ya i was thinking that same thing... she was doin so good and real independant then the last month or so she has just been taggin along with my bird dog...i like her range and build and bottom end and had every intention on breeding her with mine cause she is not rough and mine are too rough...but now im wondering if i should or not...its like she just lost interest, im gonna start workin with her for a few more months and see where that goes but if she continues to do like she has been ill prolly cull her i feel like she has alot of potential