Line-Breeding Project

[halfbreed]

mother /son father/ daughter half brother/halfsister then back to grand parents can go for years without new blood just never full brother full siter . benn breeding that way for 10 years now with good results . i breed my dogs just like i breed my roosters most all our genetic info came by the way of ckicken men still taught in all circles of the globe . out crossing in fowl only comes when needed to bring size back to line . want to talk line breeding get with an old chicken man or buy floyed gurly's book the sientific breeding of game fowl its got pedigree info on boudreaux blind billy a bulldog of extensive line breeding  from way back hope this helps

[Reuben]

mother /son father/ daughter half brother/halfsister then back to grand parents can go for years without new blood just never full brother full siter . benn breeding that way for 10 years now with good results . i breed my dogs just like i breed my roosters most all our genetic info came by the way of ckicken men still taught in all circles of the globe . out crossing in fowl only comes when needed to bring size back to line . want to talk line breeding get with an old chicken man or buy floyed gurly's book the sientific breeding of game fowl its got pedigree info on boudreaux blind billy a bulldog of extensive line breeding  from way back hope this helps

linebreeding/inbreeding works but have to cull hard and select the very best for breeding. The dogs used for breeding have got to be of the best quality and exceptional dogs with the focus being on natural ability. Outcrossing needs to be kept to a minimum to keep the junk out of the gene pool.

To me the most important part of breeding better dogs is in selection of the best.

[halfbreed]

 x-2

[TexasHogDogs]

I have not read all these threads but if I was you Mike I would do a half brother half sister breeding with the old foundation bitch being the mother of both and if the two males are not related and both great dogs make them the daddy's .



..........................Male 1
...............
..........................Foundation bitch
...Pups 50% Foundation bitch
..........................Male 2
...............
..........................Foundation bitch

These types of half bro half sister breedings enables you to carry your old foundation bitch 50% and the two males can be a 25% one and 25% the other giving you plenty of Hybrid Vigor as so the pups can still be real athletes but still be heavy on your foundation bitch and they will be good producing dogs them selfs.

You could even do it as long as they are not full brothers but maybe somewhat kin.  

Also as soon as I use to do these types of breedings I would then take these and breed right back in to the family of the old foundation bitch .  You only need to outcross when the dogs tell you they need it in other words you start getting things you dont want like the size goes down , the wind is not there, the speed starts to slow down thats when you go back to the cross then right back to what you were doing .

[BigCutters4]

i am also trying to fig this out i have dogs that are tight fbmc breed  i have a male and a female what would be the best male to breed my female to .would it be the father ?i have these to dogs and another male and female from totally diff blood they all are the same age and im gonna try to line breed these also i have acess to both parents and some grandparents from both the bloodlines . i hope this makes sence ,please help thanks,mark

[Reuben]

i am also trying to fig this out i have dogs that are tight fbmc breed  i have a male and a female what would be the best male to breed my female to .would it be the father ?i have these to dogs and another male and female from totally diff blood they all are the same age and im gonna try to line breed these also i have acess to both parents and some grandparents from both the bloodlines . i hope this makes sence ,please help thanks,mark

If you have real good hog dogs and/or access to some real good dogs that are related then you are set up to breed better dogs. I emailed you back... you can call me most any time and I will do my best to help you.

[Mike]

TexasHogDogs and halfbreed, that's my plan. As soon as these two liters are raised and I figure out which ones make dogs... i'll start crossing the 1/2 brother 1/2 sisters. That should tie all three foundations dogs together, plus, we have so much related blood around now that I believe we can go on for many years with out an outcross.

One question and i've heard this from just about everyone. Why not do a full brother/sister cross? I don't ever have any plans of doing it, just wondering what everyone has experienced with it.

[T-Bob Parker]

I've wondered the full bro sis breeding question too, what if your not pulling from similar gene pools. Example stag pit, is that parentage far enough from each other to safely replicate in full bro,sis?

[halfbreed]

i've seen it happen by accident when i sold b/s pair to a guy  they all came out lookin good and all but the jist of it is  [ if there are any bad genes or flaws it will compound them or bring them to the surface . i'll do it with my chicken lines just to test for flaws ] but i can eat them later

[cward]

Full brother full sister mine were fine as pups ran in the yard played and started baying cows like all the other pups. I kept 4  and gave 2 to two different  guys. Lots of bragging and plans for those pups.. when they hit eleven months old my 4 went crazy  you could not touch them the kids could not get near them so I put them in a pen and they would stand in the corner shaking  and growling. I would force them to let me pet them and they  would bite and eat me up. They were culled. Jason one of the guys I gave a pup called and said his was doing the same thing he did not have the Hart to do away with him so i got him and played with him and he ripped my shirt sleeve  off. The other one made one of the best  cow dogs I ever seen. Was hit by a car working cattle. He had one litter of pups and they were all good dogs.

[cward]

Now mind you that my full brother and sister  were already line breed when I breed them.

[Reuben]

i've seen it happen by accident when i sold b/s pair to a guy  they all came out lookin good and all but the jist of it is  [ if there are any bad genes or flaws it will compound them or bring them to the surface . i'll do it with my chicken lines just to test for flaws ] but i can eat them later

This is what I think about brother sister cross. If your dogs are already tight bred, meaning line bred and inbred then I wouldn't do it.

If the sire and dam to the brother and sister are not related or have a small percentage of relations then I would breed the brother sister. Then I would cull hard on the pups and keep the best of the best for breeding. This would bring your bloodline faster to a pure strain of hunting dogs if the selection process is accurate. The idea here is to select the best genes/traits and cull out the rest. This is taking out the undesireable from the bloodline and you can then line breed off of the pups.

I had some pups that the sire was also the grandsire on the dams side and also the great great grandsire on the dams side and we had a high percentage of hog dogs.

When breeding dogs there is no compromising or making excuses for the dogs that are to be bred. We have to call it like it is... If it takes 3 years to make a pup a hog dog and we make that pup into a breeder then we can expect to have to do the same with the following generations.

Again, if the strain of dogs are in the early stages of line breeding then breeding full brother sister is good if they are of high quality. If the line is established then I wouldn't do it.

[TexasHogDogs]

Well,  its a big gamble really.  I have seen it done many times and I have done it myself .   For a big percentage of them they were duds .  The other little part of them made dogs but a only a small small part of them .  Doing a bro sister breeding really is for noting more than brood stock everyone seems to think it concentrates the gene pools and that they make great producing dogs and keeps the bloodline tight which it does and some do make great producing dogs but no more better than a half bro x half sister breedings its a myth if you ask me and you are playing Russia Roulette with your breeding progam if you don't watch out.

The other side of this that is not in any books laying on some PHD professors desk you read or in some know all's pea brain.  When you do a bro x sister breeding you concentrate the blood so hard that when you do go and do a out cross and I mean one that is not related in anyway those pups come out and you are saying man these suckers are gonna be the real deal they are straight 50/50 cross .  Well the dogs come out and just don't show up they are still sluggish some have this wrong some ain't got this and you are saying what the hell.


Well what has happened is your bro x sister breedings is so concentrated that even when you done the full out cross to no kin the dogs are still inbred !!!!!!!  In other words the out cross was not enough to break down the gene pool from the concentrated bro x sister breeding you done and there fore the pups show to be a true 50/50 cross on paper they are not in mother natures eyes and in the pups blood.  These pups could still be 3/4 the bro x sister breeding in reality are they could still even be 7/8's the bro x sister breeding in reality and mother natures eyes.  Paper don't mean crap it is just a tool a map to get to were you want to be but you better know how to read dogs and mother nature too if not you in for along long ride .

So now what do you do .  Well you got to take those pups the suppose to be 50x50 pups and out cross again and again doing a full out cross no kin and then the pups come out and guess what now they are starting to show some vigor again some of them but lets say  you got a liter of 8 and 4 show great and look great  and 4 are still sluggish some things still wrong no wind lets say no stamina and maybe still down in weight .  Well there you go four took the true cross this time and four did not .  So now what ahhahahahahaahhah well thats when you be come a dog man and dog breeder  you take the four that showed great and you go back in to your family line making great dogs and the other four if you did not cull them you take one that you think is the best and if you want cross him again to bring out the true 50 x 50 cross in his are her pups , but for Gods sake don't take one of them and breed back into you family line if you do you can wreck the whole damn thing by sending unwanted family gens back into your clean family and buddy you got a mess on your hands.

So, in my experience and in all my Buddy's experiences there is really no reason to do a bro x sister breeding if you don't know what you are doing it spells big big trouble .

Also as I have said paper don't mean jack you have to read the dogs and mother nature .  A true bro x sis breeding may take you two three straight out crosses just to get the 50 x 50 pups you are wanting in the flesh and not on paper,  so my question why the hell even mess with it .

Again reading paper is one thing you can wad it up throw it in the trash  but raising pups for two years and reading dogs and mother nature is truly another and much much harder and expensive  .

My opinion is why not just do 3/4 cull the dogs and bring them back into the family line slowly with down the line kin and you still have nuff cross in them to make the difference with out the cross you have noting thats what people need to understand .

Some of you are gonna say Aw this ole man is blowing smoke but this is 30 years of breedings dogs every which way a man can breed a dog and that is not to mention if you add up all my old friends time in breeding that had more than I have like  . Carver, Elliott, Clemmons, Hall , Smith , Hammonds , Jones, Mayfeild , and many many more great breeders you dont pick up dog number 2 for 30 yrs and dont see and do all this without learning something.

But then again to each his own do if the notion hits you and expeirnce it yourself.

Mike dont get caught up in your bloodline dont go blind those crosses in those dogs are just as important as your on line is .  Many many breeders have gone blind on their onlines and the line has paid the ultimate price.  Just remember that cross is what is making those dogs along with your line you only need so much of both your dogs now have told you that by the way they are so listen to your dogs man not to paper !

Just my two cents !

[TexasHogDogs]

Just me here.

But if you do a full brother sister breeding and the sire and dam is a pickapoo and the other a German Shepard  

and you breed full bro x sister

still the same man they are full bro and sister by blood and both pulling from the same gene pool with no were else to go so you end up with the same thing .  Just no room and no were else to pull from .

You say well they are different breeds but still you bred full bro x sister they are both pulling from the same gene pool.  You say well one may pull from further back than the other well I say what difference does that make they are still all closely kin so you get the same results as if you bred a full bro x sister  BMC breeding are a Pit breeding same thing.  You are pulling genes from a combined condense gene pool with no relief genes are in other words real cross genes in it .

Just me man .

[Mike]

I gotcha!

I don't plan on any full littermate crosses, but I will be crossing 1/2 brothers and sisters to combine the blood of both foundation males.

[TexasHogDogs]

You done got me started now . Lmao! There is just not enuff room on here are enuff time .

There are other sides to these bro x sister breedings also that can wreck hovak on breeding programs .

You may sure nuff get you a super star out of one of these then you go to breeding that dog to everything on your yard and soon notice his offspring is not up to par then you mistakenly take one that is a half decent dog of his because you are sucked in by that pretty paper and thinking its gonna be gold and breed it to another gyp on the yard and that liter turns out ok so so now you are substituting pretty paper for performace thinking it will come its got to from that great blood you bred and it LOOKS SO DAMN GOOD and then you breeding one of them to some more family on your yard and boom here it comes that bro x sister breeding is fixing to beat yo butt down by breeding it back into your family of dogs for two three gens here comes them unwanted condensed genes showing there strenght by being so condensed three gens back  and they are pairing with the unwanted family genes that seem to seek each other out and boom boom boom you are in a wreck and have no direction now cause the whole yard is infested with this one bro x sister dog that you have now bred three gen deep  and scattered his offspring into breedings around the family yard .

hahahaahahahahahahah All I can say is good luck cause I have seen whole yards culled because of breeding one bad dog into a family and breeding deep with him.  One bad dog can screw up three gens of dogs in a hurry buddy.  Of course this is in big time breeding programs.

On the other hand you could get lucky and get one of them one in a million that makes ya famous but is it worth the gamble cause it is just like rolling the cylinder with one bullit in it pointed at your head .

Ya hit ya hit you dont ya dead !

[BigCutters4]

what would be the best thing to breed back to .to start line breeding . i have male and female littermates fbmc

[Reuben]

Texashogdogs,

I bred airedales and dobermans and all were outcrosses in my younger days. These dogs were not tested but most were acceptable for their breed. Then I got in to the linebreeding and inbreeding of the mtn cur and raised a high percentage of good dogs. That was fun and I spent many an hour just trying to decide who would get bred and what pups to keep....

I always kept one side open breeding on the sire or dam and the rest was related. The example would be that the sire's sire is related to the said sires dam.

On the dams side the sire would be related to the sire of the pups but the dams dam would be of no or minimal relations...

The biggest problems occurred when I outcrossed to an unrelated dog. I had to cull a whole litter due to me not liking the pups. This happened twice. When outcrossing the line of tight bred dogs to the unrelated dog seemed to give me the most culls. I got dogs that didn't hunt and some that did. I tried using dogs with very little relations but those that looked and hunted the same as the linebred dogs.

I would then breed that dog back into the line and then not breed him any more because did not want my line to become the outcross line. I just tried to freshen the blood without drowning it in the frsh blood.

It might not have been the best way but it worked for me.

I am trying to do it again but this time focusing more on grit.

I sure don't know it all about breeding dogs but I do know one thing for sure. All the dogs involved in breeding have to be of the highest quality, and just because a dog is of the highest quality does not mean it reproduces itself. Like you said...we have to be observant and look and see and listen to what mother nature is telling us.

I also turned over my males for breeding a little on the slow side but turned the females over every 2 years or so that way I could turn over the bloodline at a faster rate...  Some folks breed dogs and have a strain going but they basicly have 3 generations in almost 20 years which to me is real slow progress...

I most definitely respect your knowledge and experience and I enjoy reading your points of view. I also like your blow by blow hog hunting stories...

[UNDERDOG]

what would be the best thing to breed back to .to start line breeding . i have male and female littermates fbmc

Depends on if the dogs are even worth breeding on. Just cause they are fbmc bred they still need to be proven.

[BigCutters4]

hey reuben i got your message  im gonna give ya a call when i leave the fire station phone dont work good here