Line-Breeding Project

[noelle]

[/quote]

Depends on if the dogs are even worth breeding on. Just cause they are fbmc bred they still need to be proven.
[/quote]

Ya u want a dog that's (proven), but that too can be overrated... What if u have 8 out of 9 pups turn out great and both parents were great and both grandparents were great but that one just wasn't as good? U mite breed her and all the pups take after the grand parents and turn out great? I've had s$&@ eaters breed a dog on accident and make better dogs than alot of (proven) dogs I've had.

[TexasHogDogs]

A real number 2 eater can produce a great dog that is not were the problem lies .  It  lies down the road a gen are two when that number 2 eaters real genes start to surface.  Now you got big big problems and  a yard full of dogs bred from this number 2 eater maybe even h is offspring by now.

[TexasHogDogs]

Reuben ,

Sometimes it takes a long long time to find what is called a click in Ole bulldog terms.  What that is is two different bloodlines being bred together and the two bloods when combined hit hard and the dogs turn out great with high percentages of good to great out crossed dogs.  If there is not many people breeding those types of dogs then I would imagine the chances are slim at finding clicks like this and it is just a hit and miss kinda deal but with the bulldogs at that time it was hundreds of people looking for the same thing slowly but surly the secerts would get out and people would cross the lines and have good and great dogs and start breeding family's off of these proven crosses.

A breeder is going to have higher percentages of culls for sure when he out crosses his line unless it is a proven cross threw the years .   This is normal unless both lines are proven together before.  Lots of folks would cul even harder when out crossing like this keep only the cream of the crop and I mean cream of the crop,  the dogs had to be acceptinal in every way they would then take these dogs and cross back into other lines of dogs on there yards trying to find clicks .  It was not a easy thing.

Once a person does find himself a click for his family that is when a man can go for years and years on end  breeding in then out again going back and taking it back out producing great great dogs its just a hard thing sometimes finding the right family and then the right mix.

A lot of times when a person does crosses looking for those clicks like this the littlest things are easy overlooked for example a couple of dogs back in the  fourth gen of these dogs like those bro x sister breedings I was talking about being back in the  fourth gen the breeder would think they are so far back and only in there one time back in the fourth it should not make a difference but it sure does and that right there is the reason maybe his lines didn't click when he crossed.

If a breeder wants to b a great great breeder of dogs are familys of dogs it gets surgical no room for mistakes they can chit can your whole line.   This is why you see so many people that breed best to best and not keep familys of dogs .  They breed best to best no matter how they are bred, cull and keep only the best sometimes chit canning the whole liters but what they are looking for is that one great dog that will make them famous.  These dogs are high high on Hyberd Vigor no kind of gentic defects strong strong dogs because of there outcrossing so superior in performace because of this and as time goes on sometimes these type dogs go on to be the foundations of great lines of dogs because of this but these are one in a million types of dogs they do come along and when you get one you better have the sence to keep it are you will be kicking yourself in the ass for the next 30 years.

I will tell you a story of one of these type dogs one time that I owned and once I got him damn near didnt know what to do with him ahahahhahaahah.  The sire to this dog are these dogs went on to b a famous dog because of this breeding.  The mother went on to her fame and also become the best producing bitch I ever owned.

You are sure right about the dogs having to be culled and culled hard when you start to breed family dogs

[Reuben]

A real number 2 eater can produce a great dog that is not were the problem lies .  It  lies down the road a gen are two when that number 2 eaters real genes start to surface.  Now you got big big problems and  a yard full of dogs bred from this number 2 eater maybe even h is offspring by now.

x2....

[c dunn]

I have a gyp that is from 2 unrelated parents money can't buy. There were 4 in litter, one got runover, 1 hasn't had a chance, 2 have made awsome dogs. We are planning on making cross again. My ? Is. Where to go from here for linebreeding? Not really a family to go back to, just the original sire and dam.

[FLBayNSlay]

I think line breeding is great if you have the money, time, and dogs. Linebreeding is not the End All, Be all!!!! It works good if you have the time and money. If you only have a couple decent or good dogs and you think to yourself I should start linebreeding you probly shouldnt!  GREAT dogs are the only one's that should be thought about breeding or line breeding. People like Larry Parker have got it down to a Science and you see the results. He made it his life work to produce a top notch hunting dog in his eyes and he has done it. I see people commenting on this thread about breeding this and that, Mike seems to have it in place with his Tweety dog but dont go linebreeding/inbreeding junk and expecting to find your next Superstar! Like Reuben said it takes years and generations to get where your Click or Pack needs to be. We dont need a bunch of 3 legged 4 eyed dogs running around! CULL HARD!!!!!! 

[Bryant]

Linebreeding is to produce consistant dogs...which means consistantly as good as the ones you start with.  Start with junk, you'll end up with junk.  Everyone I've ever spoken with that has a pretty good program in place can quickly name the dog their line is based on, and the intent of their line is the reproduction of that particular dog.

[TexasHogDogs]

I think line breeding is great if you have the money, time, and dogs. Linebreeding is not the End All, Be all!!!! It works good if you have the time and money. If you only have a couple decent or good dogs and you think to yourself I should start linebreeding you probly shouldnt! 

Lmao man I could not have said it better myself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Owning and breeding a family of dogs is a real pain in the ASSSSS!  I would not do it again it takes to many years and years and years and work and work and work and money and money and money and keeps you at home 24/7 .

Got me a few good family dogs and will just breed the best and cross the best as I need them !

[Reuben]

I think line breeding is great if you have the money, time, and dogs. Linebreeding is not the End All, Be all!!!! It works good if you have the time and money. If you only have a couple decent or good dogs and you think to yourself I should start linebreeding you probly shouldnt! 

Lmao man I could not have said it better myself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Owning and breeding a family of dogs is a real pain in the ASSSSS!  I would not do it again it takes to many years and years and years and work and work and work and money and money and money and keeps you at home 24/7 .

Got me a few good family dogs and will just breed the best and cross the best as I need them !

TexasHogDogs,

retirement wages equals smaller checks... So money was a big factor and I also felt like I was married to my dogs and with retirement I wanted to make short vacations or deer hunting trips but couldn't leave because I had to tend to the dogs... not to mention the work involved. You hit the nail right on the head...

The worst part about living on the coast was trying to evacuate a bunch dogs prior to a hurricane.

I want to breed a few good dogs but only will keep a few around. I know we can't have a good linebreeding program without a large number of dogs. The only way this would work is if we had 4 or 5 folks sharing the same type of dogs and then they must have the same vision and goals.

[noelle]

As said by someone else it is not a cure all... Great dogs can still produce junk, junk dogs can produce great dogs, you mite raise the odds by line breeding and inbreeding but there's no guarantee and bout 90% of any dogs outcome is based on how it's trained and handled and what it's taught... I'm not saying that certain traits can't be bred for, and I line breed myself, but there is not much chance of reproducing the exact same dog everytime, alot of a dog is what u make it, and alot of line breeding is pride in the particular lines ;)Some do do better than others, possibly cuz someone proud of the bloodline puts more time and effort into the pup than someone that just has or gets a pup they had no pride in the breeding...the gyp I have outta the Winchester/tweety line is a prime example... She's been run with some jam up dogs and came out of a (proven) cross and line breeding and was started and trained by some top hands, but she is not hog dog material, doesn't mean her offspring wouldn't carry her range and other desirable traits, or they mite all turn out bad... She's a 2.5yr old long range help dog basically...

Linebreeding is to produce consistant dogs...which means consistantly as good as the ones you start with.  Start with junk, you'll end up with junk.  Everyone I've ever spoken with that has a pretty good program in place can quickly name the dog their line is based on, and the intent of their line is the reproduction of that particular dog.

So does that mean that just cuz my gyp is junk she can't throw offspring equal to the rest of her siblings? If I line breed her it will produce junk because she is not equivalent to the rest of the line? Explain that because she carries the same blood... But not the same level of dog... So if what Ur saying is accurate just because this one dog didn't turn out the dog shouldn't b bred no matter how good the dogs she came from are... Even tho she has the exact same blood as all the jam up proven dogs she came out of? I wanted to breed her into my stock for the range and fact that she's not rough, but if your theory is correct then she shouldn't b bred cuz she will produce junk despite her well renowned bloodlines...and wat about all the other good dogs that their lines were not recorded? I don't buy that.. Just my opinion but I believe line breeding is more of a pride and satisfaction thing than anything but certain lines are better for certain things and it raises the odds of having good dogs throughout the life of the breeding program but it's not a guarantee and not a (cure all) for having good dogs every time, that's why linebreeders cull so hard... Cuz all of them don't carry the characteristics of the blood.

[Mike]

90% of any dogs outcome is based on how it's trained and handled and what it's taught

You really believe this? Please explain...

How do "train" that dog to roll out 1/2 mile, 1 mile, etc... looking for a hog?

How do you "train" that dog to stick with the hog mile after mile when the hog runs?

How do "train" that dog to take a track several hours old and run with it?

I'm 100% percent believer in Reuben's signature line "A hunting dog is born not made".

We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over.

[UNDERDOG]

90% of any dogs outcome is based on how it's trained and handled and what it's taught

You really believe this? Please explain...

How do "train" that dog to roll out 1/2 mile, 1 mile, etc... looking for a hog?

How do you "train" that dog to stick with the hog mile after mile when the hog runs?

How do "train" that dog to take a track several hours old and run with it?

I'm 100% percent believer in Reuben's signature line "A hunting dog is born not made".

We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over.

X2

[TexasHogDogs]

You got to love it yet another big but serious question when it comes to line breeding and out crossing.  It certainly does not mean she cannot produce greatness .  To me what it means is you need to pay close attention to how you breed this gyp.

1. and most important. She comes from a high percentage liter of proven line breeding and crosses !
2.She is not a hang around dog she gets outs and gets gone with the find dogs and helps when the hog is bayed.!  So she is not a cull .  She is a inbetween type of dog.  But still only 2.5 years old that is still young really most dogs are not finished till they are 3-4 years old so who is to say she will not just be a later shower !
3. You said she has desirable traits .

Out of all of this and from what I read and I don't know the dog just what I see here the main thing is she comes from a high percentage liter of proven line breeding and crossing.  Two big keys in my mind right there.

If she was mine I don't think I would take her back into the main family but I would find me a proven cross for her and a dog that has what she is lacking and I would breed her just to see.  The main key here in my opinion is the high percentage liter first off and then the proven dogs she comes from .  If the liter was not high high percentage I would say no myself .  Take her out then if the pups work out take them back into the family.

Just me man ...........

[shsu11]

90% of any dogs outcome is based on how it's trained and handled and what it's taught

You really believe this? Please explain...

How do "train" that dog to roll out 1/2 mile, 1 mile, etc... looking for a hog?

How do you "train" that dog to stick with the hog mile after mile when the hog runs?


X3

How do "train" that dog to take a track several hours old and run with it?

I'm 100% percent believer in Reuben's signature line "A hunting dog is born not made".

We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over.

[TexasHogDogs]

"We train our dogs to come, load up, get out, sit, stay, roll over and play dead... not to hunt. You can't train the "hunt" into a dog. We expose them to what we want them to do, then genetics take over."

Right on the head , right on the head !!!!!

If it is there its there if it is not its not !!!  That simple!

I do believe the opposite a dog can be ruined by the way it is trained !

[Mike]

Noelle,

The Molly gyp is not line bred or out of a proven cross. She's a grandaughter to Tweety/Winchester from a one time cross to a 3/4 bmc x 1/4 plott from out in West Texas. None of these dogs are line bred... that's what this whole post is about.

I'm starting from scratch with one female and two males... all proven producers. I'm going to take the best of the best from here on out and line breed back to each other. It's all in the beginning stages.

[cward]

The dog I started  with was a dog i called Rambo he was born in a 1991. He was line breed when I got him,and had a bitch called puddin in hIm 4 TI
es. I have a gyp on my place that has Rambo  in,her 4 times and puddin in her 5 times. Puddin  was a great lead dog on cows cold nose easy to handle don't talk to her to loud. The gyp I got matchs her to a T. I out crossed this got with a dog called bear of Bob Owen's  the pups are turning out pretty fair.

[Bryant]

Linebreeding is to produce consistant dogs...which means consistantly as good as the ones you start with.  Start with junk, you'll end up with junk.  Everyone I've ever spoken with that has a pretty good program in place can quickly name the dog their line is based on, and the intent of their line is the reproduction of that particular dog.

So does that mean that just cuz my gyp is junk she can't throw offspring equal to the rest of her siblings? If I line breed her it will produce junk because she is not equivalent to the rest of the line? Explain that because she carries the same blood... But not the same level of dog... So if what Ur saying is accurate just because this one dog didn't turn out the dog shouldn't b bred no matter how good the dogs she came from are... Even tho she has the exact same blood as all the jam up proven dogs she came out of? I wanted to breed her into my stock for the range and fact that she's not rough, but if your theory is correct then she shouldn't b bred cuz she will produce junk despite her well renowned bloodlines...and wat about all the other good dogs that their lines were not recorded? I don't buy that.. Just my opinion but I believe line breeding is more of a pride and satisfaction thing than anything but certain lines are better for certain things and it raises the odds of having good dogs throughout the life of the breeding program but it's not a guarantee and not a (cure all) for having good dogs every time, that's why linebreeders cull so hard... Cuz all of them don't carry the characteristics of the blood.

Man, I don't even know where to start with your post.  First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint and you stand just as good a chance of bringing only her undesirable traits in as you do her good qualities.  I'm honestly a bit confused...one post you mention how good she is, next post she "was" good but now only hunts with a particular dog of your and now she's a long range help dog.  Why would you even CONSIDER breeding her?

What I talked about in my original post was the foundation dogs of a breeding program.  Again...start with trash, end up with trash.  I believe in breeding tight and outcrossing only when necessary.  Outcrossing a tight line has the potential to produce some excellent dogs, but it comes with risk.

The most important aspect of ANY breeding program is to not be kennel blind about the dogs in front of you. 

As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree.  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them.  It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are.  Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed.  I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs.

[-s kennels]

shsu...pm me

[parker]

good  thread ....... you  know  if  we  had all the  answers  to  breeding  top dogs they  wouldn't  be  worth  30 cents a  piece ......

 i do believe  your  better  success  comes  the  from  trying  to  clone  and  exceptional dog through line  breeding not the  line  but that  dogs offspring .....

i don't believe  you can  breed all top  dogs and  all top or 99% of  top  dogs  come  from  lesser  parents  so breeding the  best  to the  very  best  doesn't  mean  your  more likely  to  get that  exceptional dog especailly  in  unrelated  blooded  dogs ..... just  breeding a  line  of  dogs  may  get  you more  of the  same  but breeding close  related  offspring of an exceptional dog of that line  may  just  push  it  to something better  .......

with  my  rambling  read  my  first  line  again ,,,,,