Line-Breeding Project

[Reuben]

Simply put...i would rather breed to an average dog from a long line of above average line bred dogs  than to an above average dog from a long line of average open bred dogs. But only do it as a necessity  and not make a habit of it because this will eventually lower the quality of the dogs if  it becomes a common practice.

To me, when breeding strike dogs, all the dogs used for breeding should be dogs that can do it alone. This way I would  know that all the bases were covered. I say this because I don't understand all i need to know about breeding better dogs, therefore, the logical thing to do is to breed the best to the best from a good line of dogs. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.

[Bryant]

Glad you joined in, Larry and I agree with your points.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the foundation dog of your line and the dog you strive to reproduce is your old Blackie dog, correct?

[noelle]

Man, I don't even know where to start with your post.  First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint and you stand just as good a chance of bringing only her undesirable traits in as you do her good qualities.  I'm honestly a bit confused...one post you mention how good she is, next post she "was" good but now only hunts with a particular dog of your and now she's a long range help dog.  Why would you even CONSIDER breeding her?

What I talked about in my original post was the foundation dogs of a breeding program.  Again...start with trash, end up with trash.  I believe in breeding tight and outcrossing only when necessary.  Outcrossing a tight line has the potential to produce some excellent dogs, but it comes with risk.

The most important aspect of ANY breeding program is to not be kennel blind about the dogs in front of you.  

As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree.  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them.  It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are.  Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed.  I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs.
[/quote]
 I recall saying she is a long range help dog and that's it... She won't find hogs and won't go to a bay unless she's 50yds away and then she mite not!!! And far as range goes it does no good to go a mile and don't ever find hogs that good dogs at 200yds picked up she ran past... Whether it was a one time cross or not I heard so much about the Winchester/tweety/brandy/hunter and all the other dogs of Kin to her and was really excited but as you can tell I'm not excited anymore. She will find a hog every now and then on accident but that's not a hog dog to me. And Any dog that is taught the desire to want a hog bad enough will go out and find one, stay with it, bay it...just like a guy that wants a dog like that will sell his truck to buy one. Sure the breeding has alot to do with it but not everything. I bet most young dogs Runnin out a mile at 8mths old finding hogs have great bloodlines, and Ur prolly not training them anything, but I bet their Runnin with a mentor that's showin them the ropes! If Ur young dogs go out All on their own a mile and find a hog the first time with no training whatsoever the u sure as hell have something to brag about and I envy you and my whole outlook has changed. But if not I still think they have to have some training or an old dog to run with. I imagine all Cur dogs came from Workin dogs far enough back before they were crossed up and stuff like that. I got her cuz I heard good things about the breeding and wanted to possibly cross her with mine but I haven't, she was doin good when I got her I thought until I got a gps that told the truth, and hunted her with another dog and realized she wasn't doin nothin but Runnin a mile off in a straight line and younger dogs found hogs in front of her consistently it just took me a while to notice. Wasn't hunted with junk and was put all in hog sign. Sorry u got confused...I do believe a good dog Is born but a great dog is made and nothing is gonna change that opinion so mite as well jump back on track and everybody do things however they want to.

Mike I understood that you were breeding pups out of two of Ur dogs that were out of the same dogs and the background on the tweety dog is unknown so Ur basically starting a line breeding program recently
based on what she has proved and produced which is basically starting a line of dogs out of another line of dogs... I didn't mean that Molly was line bred sorry for the misunderstanding, just meant that she was suppose to be out of some proven dogs that y'all had bred and are starting to line breed off some of the same blood... No matter how good a dogs u breed there will always b culls... Unfortunately I got a cull I wish I coulda ended up with one that was as good as yalls are but she's just not and there could b dozens of factors as to why she isn't. No offense meant towards Ur dogs and I'm sure their good or u wouldn't b breeding them and everyone talkin so much good stuff about all of those dogs. I think I'm the one that is confused lol I thought u were breeding one of mollys littermates to a half sibling or something like that. Hope they turn out good and sorry for Gettin this all off track hope it gets back to the main subject

[parker]

yes  blackie  was the  best  i  have  owned .....

he'd  go til  he  couldn't go anymore i'd  pick him  up and he'd fall over i've fed  him  laying  down in the  barn  several  times .....

he'd relay til i left him and  come  home he;d finally  quit and  come home ....


i'd let anyone run there dogs ona  track til there dogs give  it  up and  quit  it  turn  him loose  and he'd  most  of the time  bay the  hog  SOMEWHERE ...



i've seen him  get  bayed  on  scent  so old i  guess the  other  dog  would  go  to  him  and  not  bark ....i'd  get there  and  see  him  standing  there  barking at a  clump  of  brush  of  some  kind  and  a  hog  would  be  under  it  the  other  dogs  would  start  barking  when the  hog got  up  from  its  bed  where they could find  it ....





i believe  that  why  mine  has  done so well if  his  offsprings take just a  third  from him  they will  still be  decent  working  dogs


but i haven't had  another  blackie

[BigCutters4]

when you started your breeding you found the best female you could find of his breed ?or was it of another breed

[TexasHogDogs]

In my eariler postI thought she was the same stuff Mike was talking about.  Different story if not.

[Reuben]

yes  blackie  was the  best  i  have  owned .....

he'd  go til  he  couldn't go anymore i'd  pick him  up and he'd fall over i've fed  him  laying  down in the  barn  several  times .....

he'd relay til i left him and  come  home he;d finally  quit and  come home ....

but i haven't had  another  blackie

My best dog ever was named Yeller...He was to me what Blackie was to Larry.

When I tested my pups he totally surprised and impressed me. He was born great and he set the bar real high. He was a good hog dog at 7-8 months and a jam up hog dog at 12 months. I had another at the time that was almost as good but Yeller was on a higher level still...Yeller was 1/2 mtn cur and 1/2 bmc.

Even though he was my best I did not surround my breeding program around him for one reason. That was because of the no relations behind his pedigree. Instead I used his son who was 3/4 mtn cur. He started a little later than Yeller but he was finding his own hogs at 10 months old consistently. This pups name was buck and he was sire, grand sire, great great grandsire and uncle to most of my dogs. I used him because it narrowed down the gene pool with him and I still had yeller in on the deal. I never bred back to a bmc again so each generation kept diluting the BMC and the reason why I used the bmc to begin with was to bring size and a tighter mouth.

I also kept about half of the pack pure mtn cur.

I have had very good strike dogs but yeller was still the best for two reasons...he knew where to look for a hog and he knew where to find one...He also knew how to figure out a track and which way the hog or hogs went. He made it look easy...

This could be wrong but it is an opinion I have formed from my observations.
It has to do with being too far away from the norm and reproduction. Mother nature tends to bring all things towards a normal and we as human being will fight mother nature for whatever reason and the further from that norm the harder it is to reproduce it.

Yeller was pretty far off the norm with his intelligence for a hunting dog. This dog didn't just have a strong natural instinct but it seemed like he could reason. I had quite a few good dogs since him but not one like him.

Buck was Yellers son and he was born a coffee creamer color, I am talking about every hair on his body of this color which is unusual to have every hair the same color. He was born with green eyes and later they turned yellow. All his pigment was of the same shade and sort of pinkish which is also very unsual but he was a good hunting dog, but... he never reproduced a pup of his color or pigment. And this really surprised me because I line bred hard off of this dog. So, my personal theory on this is if it deviates to far from the norm it will be very hard to reproduce. I was not trying to reproduce his color or pigment but I figured it would pop up every now and then but never happened.

Just from that experience...it tells me that breeding can be very tricky.

These are my interpretations of my observations...right or wrong...

[FLBayNSlay]

Im glad Mr.Parker got on this post. In my opinion he has reached the pennacle of line breeding. Ive seen many of his dogs bred to Jagds, Plotts, Cats, BMC's, etc and almost every pup came out lookin like a Parker!!!! Whats that tell ya Them Parkers got some dominate blood or traits running threw them. Reuben good post I totally agree!!!!!  Noelle dont beat yourself up it seems like you got a pup you had high hopes for because of the bloodline it comes from and its not quite workin out. Maybe she will hit her stride and take off you never know with a dog. I seem to have a little more patience with my pups then most on here I usually Cull them at a year and a half sometimes maybe two. I do expect my pup to be baying a hog at 4 months old and running with my lead dogs at about 8 months. 

[matt_aggie04]

Just for the record the dog noelle keeps referring to was a better dog at 10-12 months old when Clay owned her then most people are feeding. She was RUN OVER BY A TRUCK AT PROBALY 60+ MPH!  It is an absolute miracle she is even alive.  You get tired of complaining about her having an off day let me know.

[TexasHogDogs]

I sure would imagine that would have to b factored in with the way she is now ,  atleast if she was my dog and was doing that good at that young of a age and then got hit by a truck I would sure factor that in it might have hurt her but it didnt hurt her gene pool.

[johnie]

The hitch dog has a small not on er hip, but did not seem to favor it at all. That's not say it ain't mangled inside. It's been a good while since I've seen er.

[noelle]

Texashogdogs  Yes I'm sure it hurt her but she still runs off a mile and never gets sore or never limps so it must have messed her mind up to some extent but like u said it didn't mess up her gene pool...and I keep hearing this stuff about the dog but keep Bein told not to breed her... Because she isn't proven but I don't get the point behind that if her brothers sisters mother father and other Kin all turned out exceptional...

As said by Bryant,   First off, your gyp isn't linebred, and she doesn't come from any "well renowed bloodlines."  Should you decide to breed her, whatever you breed her to will be a complete outcross.  In your previous post, you mention you wanted to bring her into "your line" for some desirable traits.  Unfortunately, breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint.

Reuben,If breeding dogs isn't like mixing paint then why worry bout trying to breed for better dogs at all? You said u bred for size and a tighter mouth on a certain cross why can't I breed her for her range and not Bein rough into my dogs that are real rough and range 500yds in hopes of having 800yd dogs that aren't quite as rough? That's a serious question not a smart a$$ comment btw

Bryant,
I meant her bloodlines were well renowned on here as well as some folks around I hunt with, I knew the Winchester dog and heard lots about the tweety dog and the brandy dog and all her littermates is what I meant by (well renowned ) and I said I would like to breed her into my line which is pretty tight woven, and Ur rite that would b a complete outcross, but I could also go breed her to a dog that would make the pups line bred and not a complete outcross pretty easily if I wanted to, but then that wouldn't be bringing an outcross into my line anymore... What's the point of line breeding if it's not to (mix the paint) and get better dogs in the end? There's always a chance to pick up the bad traits that's just natural, that's why there's culls, don't see how that makes it not rite to breed at all.  I have male a dog that's proved himself in the woods and as a sire to produce a high percentage of hog dogs just like him... He's not a common house hold name on the net like some are, but he's rarely not spoken of by anyone whose hunted with him much and he is the outcome of years of line breeding, his half sister is bred to him now and I had wanted to cross a male pup outta that litter to the Molly gyp to throw that new blood in cuz it's about that time. No he's not the best dog ever born and his pups won't go a mile and find hogs at 6mths old all by theirself like yours, but they all turn on about a yr old and go 5-600yds, find hogs, bark once and catch, and most are killed by 1.5yrs of age... Without getting a offensive answer I would like to know why not breed a rangy and not so rough dog into my dogs that have been line bred for years?

Matt-aggie,
Do u think the accident caused her to mentally b off track? Physically it did not, and again I hear great things about her so why not cross her into my dogs or into a dog in her own pedigree and try to reproduce
it? Her off days are getting more frequent but she will be culled at my house if I end up not using the blood, she won't ever be sold or change owners again too much controversy over it.

[Bryant]

Noelle,

First off let me backup and set the record straight.  I never in any post stated that I had 6-month old pups that would "go a mile and find hogs."  What I DID say, is that I have some 6-month old pups who were specifically bred for independance and will roll out a mile deep given the chance.  The intention of my post was simply to point out how training has had no effect on these dogs...they do naturally what they were bred to do.  These puppies have not a clue what they're doing in the woods, only that something inside them drives them to want to find something.

In reference to linebreeding, I use the analogy of "mixing paint" for two reasons.  First off, mixing paint always produces an exact end product.  Secondly, two colors when mixed will always produce something somewhere in between.  Neither is true when breeding.  It's not as simple as taking nose from this dog, hunting drive from this dog, size from this one, etc.  When you make a breeding, you're bringing in everything about that dog (and that dogs parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc)  Be nice if we could single out only the good quailities, but that just doesn't happen.

As far as outcrossing an established line...my thoughts are this.  First, I will only outcross when totally necessary and mostly for health reasons (inbreeding depression) although there are times when you may want to bring in a desirable trait you find lacking.  When an outcross is to be made, I would *ONLY* breed to a dog from an established line who is better or at the very least as good as what you're already working with.  Remember, you're bringing in that dogs bad characteristics just as equally as his/her good.  That entire litter would be kept and evaluated to find which dog (if any) exhibit the intended trait without loosing whats already been established and that is the dog that will be bred back into the original line.

No form of breeding will produce litters in which all the dogs will be identical or litters that will all make the grade.

[noelle]

That's why I was wanting to breed her, she is nothing to brag about but her bloodlines must b because everyone here is spastic about them seems like, and like they said at a yr old she was great then got hit and now is not so great... Doesn't mean her genes are bad just means circumstances didn't let her reach her full potential possibly which is why I'm not basing the possibility of crossing her into mine off her own accomplishments, instead basing the blood off what everyone else has out of the same litter or same lines period, which seems to be the longer range I'm Lookin to throw in mine. But again I've never seen any of these dogs hunt only read about them on here mostly so it's hard to make a decision based just on here say which is why I haven't bred her since I've had her.

[noelle]

  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...

Sounds like u were claiming they do in Ur other post, I'm glad u cleared that up I was curious bout that lol  no doubt it can b bred into them, but it can also taught with another lead dog... either or make good dogs, the combination of both make great dogs jmo

[uglydog]

I knew Winchester since he had his eyes open what do you want to Know? He was the best of the litter IMO most all his male littermates were kept until nearly a year of age (Remington, Colt, and forget the other males name at this moment, females were Trigger and Bailey) to weed out which one worked the best with his owner/breeders style of hunting. The owner of these dogs plus Tweety and her sister were going through a DiVORCE and the dogs and whole package went together to a Dog Broker that divided them up and sold them off.
 
Tweety speaks for herself, yeah may not know her exact parentage, but at this point with the rate she REPRODUCERS herself almost as good as cloning, its not really a neccesity to see her actuall parents even though I want to know the TRUTH about what dog that REPRODUCTIVE trait came from., just to satisfy questions I have.

Mike has a GOOD dog, and he has taken the time and effort into tracing and tracking the dogs history of these dogs because he has hunted with enough dogs over the years to recognize what he has, and trying to do a good job and keep a gene pool going to put these caliber of dogs out there.

[Circle C]

noelle,

   In one post you say she is a cull, in the next post you say you want to breed her to your dogs.  I can't imagine how breeding a cull into your dogs will help what you have...  If she's a cull, do what needs doing. Simple as that.

[t.wilbanks]

  I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training.  I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...

Sounds like u were claiming they do in Ur other post, I'm glad u cleared that up I was curious bout that lol  no doubt it can b bred into them, but it can also taught with another lead dog... either or make good dogs, the combination of both make great dogs jmo

A " lead dog " cant teach a dog to hunt... all it can do is help the other dog figure out exaclty what its looking for and what to do when it finds it.... the rest is up to the dog... all the hunt, drive, bottom, etc. cant be taught... the dog has to have it in them...  it doesnt matter how good of a lead dog you have, if the other dog doesnt have the " want to " .....

The dog may go out a mile with your "lead dog" but that doesnt make it a long range dog... its what the dog does on its own that shows what it really has....

I have a pup now that will go with long range dogs however far they go, but on her own is only hunting out to around 300 yards away...
but she consistently finds her own hogs and stays busy in the woods.... she may not have " it " yet, buts shes got alittle....  

[noelle]

Just out of curiosity uglydog is there a possibility that Winchester and tweety had the same bloodlines? Did they both come from the same breeder or did i misread? I'm not that familiar with winchesters background that much before he moved to Travis house

[noelle]

Circle c, to me she is a cull but according to all of y'all y'all have jam up dogs out of the same litter and the whole line don't produce culls so which is it? It's a fine line between her Bein a cull and her bloodlines Bein a cull which is the point I'm trying to make.  She obviously has an excuse for not Bein great but are the others really that great? If they are then why knock this gyp out the breeding program because she got ran over? Everyone has all the answers but don't seem like anyone can answer the question at hand!!! Are her genes good or bad enough braggin and story tellin get the facts out there... She got ran over so ain't great big deal what about her bloodlines? Can she not produce good dogs just cuz she got ran over???