Another question

[So Oklahoma Cur Dogs]

I keep hearing about people ruining good dogs. How do you ruin a good dog? It may seem like a no brainer to some of you but I haven't hunted with any real experienced dog men. I'm pretty much self taught so there's alot that I don't know. Thanks

[matt_aggie04]

I don't know how you could ruin one either other then run it with a hound and then the dog starts yipping on track or something.  Or running a really young dog with a dog that trashes but those are not likely examples.  I have also seen where lazy people would not go to a dog whe they are bayed and the dog learned to quite and not trust that help was coming.  Again these are all very rare cases.
Matt

[clint]

i agree with matt those are bout the only reasons i could think you could ruin a good dog

[Rowdy]

Does that mean all my dogs are ruined Matt since they run with a hound maybe they are but they produce pork with a real good consistency!!!

[matt_aggie04]

As long as they work for you and you like what they do then all is well but if I had a dog coming up that I didn't want to ever open his mouth till he was looking at a hog then I wouldn't run him with a hound.  That being said I guess what I really meant to say is that I would not run a young dog with an older dog that had undesirable trait that you didn't want the pup to end up with.    I won't knock an open dog that get's it done Rowdy, they just won't work for me where I hunt not a good example I suppose 

Matt

[Bryant]

It probably has to do with my style of hunting and how I like my dogs to hunt, but when asked your question what immediately comes to mind is dropping a dog on the ground and taking off behind or beside it on a four wheeler.  

My hunting group all prefers rangy or extremely busy type dogs and I have witnessed good dogs of this caliber that were bought as such and ruined by doing what I describe.

EXTREMELY important is not doing this with pups.  If you desire dogs that stay close or that work up ahead 50 or so yards as you ease along, then go ahead.  I personally do NOT want my dogs learning to follow or come to the sound of my wheeler.  I can be very anal especially with young dogs about riding the wheeler with dogs on the ground.

Along those same lines, I also believe you can ruin a good prospect pup by handling it too much.  Once again just my opinion.

[Mr. HG]

Bryant I think what you are saying is correct.I don't think a dog being open is that big of deal as long as the dog is going to be there to the end. Like I have said in the past whats any louder than a full blown bay so why do you catch hogs after that. I think most young dogs that are hunted behind your older dogs go to the bay most of the time until you allow them to be hunted by them self and trail and find there own.So if a dog is opening he pulls the young dogs in the race instead of leaving them is what we have noticed.My main strike dogs if I put them down to cast them if the pups take a crap he will never see them and if he trys to trail them he whines up getting lost and 1/2 mile later he's throwed out of the race before it even gets started.My open dogs have not made my silent dogs open. I have personally started 14 pups this year and got 6 that are 5 to 7 monthes of Scotts so that will be 20 over half of them are able to start there own hog or cow and will go. I think the same about handling if anybody has gotten a puppy from me they are not that friendly they will load in a trailer and come when you call to feed and they will hunt open or silent I'm raising hog dog prospects not excuses or house pets.Rowdy and Bryant don't weaken.

[Noah]

Good stuff Des, I've had the same issue you just described.  These silent dogs are tough on starting pups, they tend to leave town and leave the young dog confused at first when they loose sight.

On the subject, I think it really has to do with the quality of your dogs and the abundance of hogs.  If your dog  likes a hog and you keep putting one in front of him, no problems, he'll figure it out no matter what you do.  In our case, we don't have a ton of hogs around and it can make it real hard on young dogs.  It can be a balancing act, you want to get them out in the woods but sometimes it might take all day to strike one hog.... that can leave plenty of time for a dog to get bored and find trouble.  A perfect example is a friend of mine has had hog dogs for 15yrs, they've always caught hogs up till a few yrs ago.  For about a yr, he lost his hog land and had to run on deer land(very, very few hogs), well those dogs hunted, and hunted.. and hunted... till they finally started running deer out of sheer boredom.  Although he restarted them on hogs later on, those dogs(to this day) would rather run a deer than a hog.

The other problem I always run into is people wanting to "train" their dogs by running them with mine.  Very distracting when you've got somebody else's dogs catching armadillos while your dogs are trying to hunt...

I guess being anal, like Bryant said, isn't such a bad thing if it results in caught hogs.  The longer I've been doing this the more puckered I'm getting

[uglydog]

There is a the Statement - "Ruin a good dog" No, proly not unless you shocked them off the desired behaviors, preventing a dog from becoming a "good dog" would be more like it.

The POTENTIAL GOOD DOG, yes can be ruined,

1# Too much coddling and re-insuring that the habit of stayiong close to the individual that handles/feeds, promotes bad behaviors. Some dogs will just go out hunting anyway, but those dogs are less common than a dog that wants to please and stay close after conditioned to do so.

2# I have seen some people putting a dog too young or small on a hog that was too much for the dog at that particular time, The dog was left with a  mental scar that hogs are BAD, and wanted nothing more to do with them, some dogs can be worked out of it, others never do. What was the point of letting the dog get whooped by a hog?

3# I do believe trail barking can be contagious, to a dog that has the potential to trail bark, not all dogs do, but run a young dog with dogs that trail bark and find out real quick if he has the potential because when excited on a race with trail barkers, well that young dog will often show true colors at that point. I have some dogs that do have natural ability to "bark excited" I refuse to run those pups with others dogs that bark on track. "Monkey See, Monkey Do"  is true in alot of things that have to deal with hunting hog dogs.
I don't like a dog that barks trail, If you do give me your number and I will call you next time one comes through my place, because reguardless how many hogs it strikes, I don't want to hear the race, that part just comes back to what works for one don't work for someone else, It don't work for me and I will Cull IT, striking or not.

What Bryant does not like about the ATVs teaching dogs to come-in, can be used in a reverse as well. I see what he is saying an agree from that view point, I like a dog that will take off and get out when you crank up the bikes myself, but don't want one to follow the bikes or hang out with them.

[So Oklahoma Cur Dogs]

I understand about trail barking and that it's not desirable but what about barking at a running hog. Is that ok? Or do you only want it to bark at a bayed hog?

What is so undesirable about a dog running with a atv? Is it just that you want your dog to get out? Mine run in front of the atv till they wind on a road but if I'm riding in the woods they will get out. When I stop they will start ranging out. They wont just sit there by the atv with me. Also I let them run in front of the truck some times down the road till they wind. If I'm walking they don't walk with me. They get out and hunt and check back in. I wouldn't keep a dog that stays under my feet. But as far a pulling up to the gate and turning them loose and them covering five square miles till they find a hog doesn't seem to work that way for me. These two brindle ones may be that way though.

Me and Gardner went on a hunt down in east texas last spring and we took two close range dogs that ran with the atv's. All the other guys had rangy dogs that took off hunting and me and Gardner had a hog bayed in ten minutes from leaving the truck. The other guys dogs did good as well and bayed a hog later on also but so did me and Gardner with just our dogs windin from the road. I hunt small areas and like a close range dog.

[Mr. HG]

I like to hunt my rangy dogs with a dog that stays close you almost always will catch hogs behind the rangy dogs. But if you go some where and they are hard to find in big country and hogs are scarce if you don't want to drive every inch cut a big looping casting dog loose he will get the party started alot of the times. I have dogs that fit the different country and situations we hunt we have a dog that will wind and honest up to about 150 to 200 yards all you got to do is drive she will do the rest and won't really cast but put her on a track 8 out of ten times you will be looking at it so it just depends on your dogmanship skills and your dogs skills.

[uglydog]

It all comes back to what you want from your Dogs. What pleases me won't please the next person and vice versa. I personaly am not so hard set on a dog that gives mouth while it can see a hog, even if they are on the move. I just don't like a dog that barks where a hog was standing 15-20 minutes ago. My preference is a dog barks to let me know where the hog IS not where it was. I listen to others dogs bark and bay and some dogs you can tell the pitch changes up when they get bayed, but I like when I hear a silent solid dog open and then we know fer sure.
One of the guys we hunt with often likes to hear them dogs, he grins whenever they get started, he don't realy care if they put a hog at the end of it. Different Strokes for different folks!

Again the short ranged dogs are great for alot of places & situations, and in other places it helps to have a dog that will go deeper. Just hunt for yourself and do what makes you happy!

[So Oklahoma Cur Dogs]

Short range dogs with long range dogs, thats something to think about. Makes some sense. That may be what I'm gettin my self into. Time will tell.

Good point Uglydog. How much acreage will yalls dog cover if you just drop the tailgate and let them go. I figure mine will cover a couple city blocks before they come back and then they will wait on me to to move on down unless they get on some.

Do yalls rangy dogs go out and check back in or do you have to go find them if they don't get on anything?

Hope all yall aren't getting tired of me picking your brains? This is a pretty interesting thread if I do say so. I come up with some good ones every now and then. I still feel like crap to be honest about the "was I wrong" remember that one.

[Mr. HG]

I  know uglydog has more experince but I have some dogs when you drop the tail gate you are going to have to track  to them but your dogs will detemine that.I really don't hunt those dogs that much because most of the time they will get you in trouble and its no fun tracking dogs to find them its more fun and action when you can hear them and listen and follow the race.But you got to have those kinds of dogs for brood stock I think to produce the drive and hunt you need in your dogs.

[Mike]

I like having a short range dog in sight while hunting. I've got one that i've caught just as many hogs with as the other dogs. She'll either wind them, see them, or bay another one going to the other dogs bay. They also help alert you to the other dogs baying while the 4-wheelers are running.

[Mike]

And ask all the questions you want... thats what these boards are for... hunters helping other hunters.

Close range, long range, rough, loose, open, silent... you'll get all different styles from all different hunters. There is no one way better than the other... you just have to decide what suits and makes you happy.

[Bryant]

Rowdy and Bryant don't weaken.

Not sure what that comment means, Des.  Like I have said MANY, MANY, MANY times before what I do is what works for me and what produces as an end result dogs that match my personal style of hunting.  Never have I said that I produce or have better dogs than anyone else's but in my opinion and for what I look for in my dogs they're pretty darn good.  Check with Scott and see what he thinks....he's hunted (and caught hogs) behind a couple of 'em.

And ask all the questions you want... thats what these boards are for... hunters helping other hunters.

Close range, long range, rough, loose, open, silent... you'll get all different styles from all different hunters. There is no one way better than the other... you just have to decide what suits and makes you happy.

I agree 100%.  The answer is, there is no answer.  I enjoy reading (and learning) all the different ways people go about achieving the same end result.  PORK!

[Mr. HG]

That saying just means go getem thats all I don't know what else you are talkling about but just a funny saying.Like don't let up on the hogs. You know lighten up its all good.Far as Scott goes he didn't say much Scott has good dogs and far as dogs my dogs are trashing until I see a hog thats what kind of junk I'm feeding I'm one hunt away from baying up all of somebodies cows and getting kicked off every place I hunt so I would never say I had dogs better than anybody else.

[Bryant]

No prob.  Sometimes it's hard in text to understand meanings.

And I hear you on the dogs.  That's why I typically don't say a whole lot.  The only thing I can be CERTAIN a dog will do is make a liar out of me.