Are Goodman Fox hounds and Cathoula Leopard from the same dog way back???

[treeingratterrier]

Before I get bashed I will tell you that I was a Bench Show Foxhound judge and Feild trail judge and also a member of the Goodman Hound Club In Lulkin Texas and in Illonis, they may be exticnt by now aslong with the Birdsongs and Husdpeth Foxhounds I first used on Javelinas and then swithed to coyote and back to bobcat as droughts and overhunting went back and forth.  I had a Blue spotted set of goodman foxhounds that i ran on our ranch, they had glass eyes and many many people thought and told me i had some good looking catahoulaslol  The dogs ran heads up and would bay tight and run for miles and stay put when the hogs wind was broke until the curs we ran them with as well caught up with them, we used to go down south of Beeeville and run on purpose large javeinla packs that were bothering cow dog guys and deer hunters, it was common to run them all into a cave or culvert ro large cactus room and bayed until we got there and shot them all as nueniece calls..  I would never do this agin but this was the 60 70s and early period back in the day.  I am curious if anybody ever had this thought after seeing the goodmans especially the glass eyes blue spotted ones that looked almost like the old time Leopards before they all got papered and puppy milled to some extint.  But, I have not been active in years and the internet spread of forums still kinda floors mee sometimes. 

[djhogdogger]

 Your post got me to thinking so i did some research on the internet today. I couldnt find anything about the goodman fox hound and catahoulas coming from the same lines but i did find a picture of a goodman and you are right about them looking similar.
 

[djhogdogger]

History of the Goodman Hound
This is not intended to be a complete history of the Goodman Hound. The history of any of the foxhound breeds is a subject that could be researched for hours and the reader would still only have limited knowledge about the breeders and dogs that developed these types of hounds into what they are today.
The history of the Goodman Hound should not be told without mention being made of Ben Robinson. He was born in Montgomery County, Kentucky about three miles north of Mount Sterling in 1805. Robinson was a dealer in horses and mules and made many trips to the eastern States. He became friends with and hunted with the Maryland hunters and their Irish hounds. In about 1850 he brought Tickler and Jake to Kentucky. Many other hounds were brought to Kentucky from around 1850 to 1870. Some of these were Fury, Whitie, Wag (a Virginia hound), Eagle, Old May, Highland and Lady. From Whitie and Fury came Cunningham's Ben.

Willis Goodman, he cannot be given full credit for developing this strain of hounds, but he was the guiding influence. Mr. Goodman was born in Albemarle County, Virginia. As a young man he moved to Paris, Kentucky and took with him some of his hounds of Virginia breeding. He served in the Confederate Army and it was after the war between the States was over that he began his strain of hounds. We will begin with what is said to be the first mating that originated this strain of hounds.

Goodman had a female named Goodman's Lizzie. She was of Maupin breeding. You would probably know this particular bloodline as Walker. Her Maupin blood consisted of the imported English breeding crossed with the great Tennessee Lead. Tennessee Lead was a major contributor the the development of the foxhounds as a whole. Lizzie also carried a trace of Ben Robinson breeding. Cunningham's Ben was straight Ben Robinson breeding. Both his sire and dam came from the Irish hounds of Maryland that traced back to the original importation of Mountain and Muse by Governor Ogle in 1812. Mountain and Muse were the famous pair of hounds that were bred extensively from 1812 until their death and are considered to be the single greatest contributing breeding pair to the development of the foxhound breeds. The Robinson hounds were highly regarded all over the country and their reputation as excellent red foxhounds became mythical. About 1876 Lizzie and Ben were bred. These pups are considered to be the first litter of pups born that would later be called Goodman Hounds.

Goodman should be given credit for supplying and supervising the early outcrosses of this breed. He was able to do this effectively because of his vast knowledge of the various bloodlines. Virginia Bolivar was whelped about 1878. He was bred by Sam Yates of Virginia and given as a present to Goodman by his cousin, William Durrett of North Garden, Virginia. Goodman used Bolivar as a stud dog with good results. Goodman later sent him to New England after he was used extensively as a sire in Kentucky. Scully was purchased by Goodman and Colonel Clay from Colonel William Johnson of Nashville, Tennessee. Scully was used with great success on the females having Bolivar as a sire. Their was much debate among the foxhunters of that day on whether or not Scully was a July hound. Scully shows the Durrett and Cole hounds of Virginia up close in his pedigree. In his third and fourth generation pedigree he shows practically the same blood as does Bolivar. Scully was said by Goodman to be, "A good game hound with plenty of speed and guts which he imparted to his pups". Mollie Trevis may be considered to have been one of the foundation brood matrons. She was owned by Asa Spahr of Winchester, Kentucky. She had several crosses of Maupin's Imperial Rifle and Tennessee Lead in her bloodlines and was definitely a hound that represented Goodman's ideas of proper breeding. She is found quite frequently coming into the pedigrees from crosses on Fidler, a son of Cunningham's Ben out of Goodman's Lizzie.

Mr. Goodman made no claims that his hounds were superior to any others. He was not one to brag on hounds of any breeding. Most of the foxhunters of that day believed that speed was the thing to breed for. Goodman was of the opinion that speed alone was not the important thing. He tried to breed for courage, endurance, speed, a good nose and fox sense. He wanted hounds with good feet and plenty of bone. A necessary factor if they were to pass his test of being able and willing to run five consecutive days and give a good race each day. He believed that no other hunters, with the exception of the Walker brothers, put their hounds through such a severe test as did he and his hunting companions.

The honor of naming this strain of hounds does not belong to Goodman, but rather to Dr. W. E. Wyatt of Cyrene, Missouri. Dr. Wyatt had heard of hounds sent by Goodman and his friends to Captain Bowles and Dr. J. W. Norris of Palmyra, Missouri. He wrote Goodman asking for some of these hounds that were making quite a name for themselves in Missouri and did received them. He later secured permission from Goodman to use his name in a letter intended for the American Field. Goodman had no idea that his name would be used for this purpose and was against commercializing the fame of his hounds.

After Goodman became to old to hunt he still secured hounds for hunters from the friends and neighbors who bred his strain. Following the death of Goodman, the breeders of this strain withdrew to themselves and tried to breed for the same high standards as did Willis Goodman. In doing so, they concentrated for many years on line breeding in the different areas of the country. However, they also basically stopped the promotion of the breed and bred only for themselves and close friends. They had a definite fear of what commercial breeders would do to the breed and guarded it jealously. Because of this, the Goodman Hound never really caught on like the Running Walker or July did. Back in the 1970's and 1980's some of these breeders began crossing their strains with great success. They began to again show up and do well in the open competition and field trials. Still, the majority of Goodman Hound breeders would rather give a hound to someone who will handle and hunt it as it was bred to do than to sell one to someone who is interested in selling pups for profit.

To help close the gap between the foundation of the breed and today I have listed below some of the well know hounds of the early 1900's. Gaitskill's Highball was whelped in 1905. Highball carries Bolivar in his bloodlines. Kincaid's Buster was whelped in 1906. Champion King Phillip was whelped in 1909. He is a famous sire that lived until 1921and stood at stud in six differetn states from Oklahoma to Vermont. He is considered to be one of the greatest studs of all time. Willard was whelped in 1917 as well as the famous female Jett's Lillie. Many of the present day hounds carry the blood of these mentioned several times in their pedigree.



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[treeingratterrier]

The Goodmans I had were almost completely Leopard spotted with that Merle gene and no tan to even give that might have hound in them off to anyone, I got them from the Parker Family from Cuero/Lufktin Texas.  I always wondered the same thing about the similar colors between the Black Mouth Cur, Leopard, and Plott hound, if you look close especially on the linebred strains they seem to alway have a throwback gene that shows spotted colors betwwen the 3 dogs.  After all is said is and dont the dogs we have here in the USA were created here from distinct lines from what ever county the boat people brought over from Europe, its reallly about the same with the horses brought over as well.  The King of Spain sent explorers over here and records show he bought all kinds of horses from every part of Europe to send on the ships to explore.  I always figured the dogs came from everywhere as well, seems like a lot of some kind of slave or war dogs had a lot of mastiff or some kind of bulldog in them, usually yellow, I bet hey would past as some American Bulldogs of today or some Curs especially the types we see now bred a lil smaller but having the bulldog and mastiff colors still held in the strains.  I always wondered what dog in Europe has the spotted color gene though.  I remember seeing that yellow blackmouth cur breeder from the east texas forest Jude Hart being interviewed and archived into the State of Texas video collection or oral history on tv about 25 years ago.  He was relating to the interviewer that his parrents landed with some kind of dogs and were in Florida and actually worked and traveled there way to Texas taking over 18 months, they had the dogs with them and were catching cows, hunting bears and hogs on the way over here.  I have always wondered where is that interview and one could see it somehow on a Texas gov web site or search.  Did anyone on here see the Jude Hart mirgration tv interview??  He was still alive and in his 90's when i was young, Lavon Davis had some dogs from him and were in the strain i had for a while, i bred up a bunvh of them and made 2 or 3 hog drives with on our ranches just to see if i could really leave them out there baying for hours and to see if the hogs we had down here would bay up and be driven to the pen down there like wild cows.  After that i fooled with a lot of different strains of blackmouth curs especially some strain or red blackmouth that was a larger dog from east texas.  I dont even remember who i got them from up there any more, i do remember he lived under the brige in Bridge City really close to Beaumount, lots of his dogs were used by cow people especily auction barn cowboys who were catching cows for contract and clearing out large pastures down here.  Back to the Goodman hounds, if I did not watch if breeding them back they also had a ton of white on them sometimes got deaf pups just like the catahoulas i had from time to time, weird for sure.  No telling how close all of these dogs curs and hounds were at one time when the county was just settled, the same type questions also come up with the earlier Terriers as well and people argue over the rat fox fiest history but is interesting to me at timeslol

[Wmwendler]

Interesting.....I have never hear of that type of hound before.  I have a book Called "Big Thicket legacy"  Where each chapter is an interview from an old timer in South East Texas.  Jude Heart is one of those chapters.  I would love to see that video interview.

I too beleive that the dog breeds and types created in The Southern United states originated from the people who colonized those areas, and the breeds they created came from dogs which encompanied them on the boat from Europe.  Those breeds include the spanish alano, originally used for hunting boar, and working cattle in Spain.  Beauceron Used for herding cattle in France.  The predecessor of the Plott hound used for hunting boar in Germany.  Probly many others lost to history over the years due to the fact that the people who used these dogs had not interst in promoting them for anything other than practical use.

The Beaceron had the Merle gene.  It could be the source of that gene in those hounds.  It would not supprise me if those hounds share some common ancester with the cur breeds.  Given thier tendancy to run heads up as you described.

Waylon

[djhogdogger]

 Im very interested in hearing more about the east texas red bmc's that you raised. Do you still have any of that line or know where they are?

[goose]

im not to good with pasting links but if youll pull up tieemuporleavem's profile ang go to his forum his has a dog breeding and ancestor room on there and it has some real interesting info...i got a pup from a guy that is half walker half catahoula he bred these dogs for field trial because the gyp was the cur and she could outrun the walkers for about two hours but anyways what this guy did he bred this gyp twice to his top two studs and kept all the walker looking pups and give away the cur looking ones my male is built identical to a big walker hound but colored just like a cur with blue lep spots and glass eyes

[Joe Tullos]

Needed a pack of coyote fox hounds. Have 5000 average and plenty coyote and fox. Thought miles north Houston. I can be contacted at 281-850-3269 leave message I call you back hunt anytime No fee

[Corey]

I have started getting into Leopard Hound(the cur strain), while they don't tend to have much white or glass eyes, I have come to the conclusion they share some common blood way back, I don't think there is one in the other. They were bred in different locations for different purposes using different crosses to get where they are today. Just my 2 bit from random reading and talking to folks.

[driller1987]

They r good lookin dogs

[bigo]

Some of the July hounds come spotted and glass eyed and have basicly the same foundation blood. The original July hound was a dog named July and was a son of Mountain and Muse, the pair of Irish hounds imported by Mr. Ogle.

[treeingratterrier]

Some of the July hounds come spotted and glass eyed and have basicly the same foundation blood. The original July hound was a dog named July and was a son of Mountain and Muse, the pair of Irish hounds imported by Mr. Ogle.

 


Never saw a old line July with a glass eye, they were one or 2 solid colors back then in the 60's and 70's when a July pack was the prized thing to have to catch yotes and bobcats on these huge ranches down here that had thousands of angora goats getting eaten alive by bobcats, eagles, lionss and town down dogs and yotes, most of th julys have been crossed with everyhting to the point where in my view it is not even the same dog, just like has happened to some terrier breeds who dont tree and are way to huge for varmits. 

Goodmand association used to be barely alive, last one i went t there were about 100 blues etc etc at it, think it was held in Illinois, i have gogoled lately and can find the club any more.  Just like some of the julys and goodmans at one time there was a rare  treeing strain in the strain itself vs the normal wolf dogs.  There is a strain of running walkers that have been bred for running in the hot dry brush of south texas still going on down here but i think since mexico got sold to the cartels there will none of them left soon like 4 years, ranches have been cut up, people dont want to hunt running game and meixoc is to dangerous and nobody buys cat hides anymore, you got to remember some of the running hound breeders used the dogs to make a living with and you nevee saw these fancy answy websites with some dog that got blown up about, peeps used to read the hunters horn and others to see what dog won in the feild trials all over the usa.  Sadly many wormy people on the site continue to bash hounds treeing and running without ever knowing the foxhound rule box rules still available from hunter horn as to speed and drive, sriking, returning to cast etc etc.  If you like to read about foxhounds and see some interesting pictures of dogs that have got to have been added look up Hudspeths, and Birdsongs and some more now extinct breeds who were bred to sound a certain way so that if a 100,000 valley had 15 different packs of foxhounds running at nights the owners of the different plantations could pick out there packs bird soung squeal over say a hudspeths bell mouth bak on trak, I sure miss the Goodmans and and the birdsongs for sure, different and not for sale from pupply factorys raised by wetbacks like near me nowdayslol

[DannyWestbrook]

I hog hunt goodman hound long ranging good dogs also catahoula / goodman cross got pups now 903-876-3878 dan