RAW MEAT DIET FOR DOGS - COMMON MISCONCEPTIONS

[cantexduck]

 To add to Steve's point- I had a 30lb female that I fed 3 pounds to. She would draw up on anything else. I have a male not muhh bigger that is perfect woth a tad over a pound a day.

[Cull Buck]

You guys are a bad influence on me.  Dry dog food always seemed like a much easier (easy storage, easy to find, etc) way to feed the dogs but these post have me convinced the raw diet is great for the dogs.

My raw diet started last night with chicken quarters for the pack and they LOVED it. Chicken quarters at the super wally world by my house were around $6.50/10 lb bag .  I have to find a cheaper raw meat source or its back to dry dog food.  What are your feelings about feeding a half dry dog food half raw diet until I can get all the meet I need to go 100% raw?

[Texas_Cur]

Cody, and Steve,
     I see you guys feed a lot of chicken to your dogs.  My question is would raw duck be an adequate substitute for chicken?  Or does it have too much fat in it.   I seem to shoot a ton of ducks every season and I really dont like the way they taste.

[Monteria]

The simple answer is this........ If it wont eat the dog first, I feed it to them.

I use chicken from the store when I have to because it is cheaper than anything else. I currently have over 200lb of it in a deep freeze.

That being said, I try to feed anything else first. Pork, venison, a coon or oppossum if it happens across the yard, My roommate shoots gar and carp with his bow and occasionally throws them some of that...... The chicken gets used when Im out of everything else.

Dont worry about bones being too big or anything like that. If the dog can chew and injest it, it will. If not, they will gnaw the meat off and leave the bone.

If I still duck hunted, I would shoot my limit of mud hens every hunt and just throw them to the dogs whole. If you dont like duck, feed them that.

Steve

[Black Gold]

Cull Buck,

I wouldn't mix kibble with RAW.....kibble digests in a dogs stomach much slower than RAW meat does.  To feed the two at the same time could cause problems (as far as I've read).....In all the things I've read I remember it saying if you were determined to feed kibble then do it one day and raw one day but not both on the same day......RAW feeding goes past just nutritional benefits......I've read where many dogs have carbohydrate allergies....this has been seen by some vets as the root cause to many cases of allergies (throat and nasal problems), dermadactic mange, hot-spots, and skin/coat conditions.....I dont know if that is true, but just hypothetically if it was and your dog was allergic.....think of how much better he/she could wind with a clear nasal cavity!  I stand by my original challenge.....Go 100% RAW for 8 weeks and make a promise to yourself to give absolutely no kibble and see for yourself the difference in your dogs.....If there are allergy problems related to kibble with your dogs you wont see much of a change by going back and forth.....If you dont care and just looking to save some $$$ on feed then by all means alternate RAW with kibble.

TexasCur,

I think duck would be an excellent choice....If I had access to it  Isure would feed it.


As mentioned above.....RAW feeding adds lean muscle mass to a dog vs. carbohydrate induced fat that kibble puts on......For those of you that saw the dog RIP that I have been keeping from Australia this past summer when he was eating kibble....He was WAY over weight.  I couldn't hunt him and therefore was very limited to the amount of exercise that  I could provide him outside the kennel.....His hunting weight is around 90 pounds but he was over 105 this summer.  When I made the switch to RAW he got his fill.  He eats first and eats what he wants before the others get theirs.  During deer season I had a huge supply of deer necks and many days the dogs got 5 or 6 pound necks each.  WAY more than they needed, but I had a great supply from the taxidermist and didn't have the freezer space or time to cut them down......RIP trimmed up....even when eating way more than he should.....He is around 95 pounds and looks more muscled than I have ever seen him.
Feeding RAW....even if you feed too much will tone down your dog and improve muscle tone.

[shawn]

lol@ chunk from the goonies (great movie by the way) , hell i already call this dog doofus, think callin him chunky doofus would give him a complex?

[Cull Buck]

Cody, thanks for the info.  My dogs look great IMO.  They are all lean, mean, and ready to roll (except my lab, but she is daddys chubby baby girl that gets lots of treats).  The reason for making the switch is for other reasons such as eliminating processed food and all the chemicals associated with it, nutritional benefits, etc.

One last question, at what age can a pup be introduced to a raw diet? 

[JUG]

First let me state that this diet is not intended to represent a "premium" RAW diet, but a low budget raw diet for larger kennel situations trying to keep their costs down. The big claim that larger kennel operations cite as a reason for not feeding raw is "cost" and "convenience."

Well, feeding raw is always going to be a bit more inconvenient than feeding kibble, but I have made this formula as convenient as I can (you can get everything at WalMart), and as cost-effective as I can (it costs less per-lb than the number 2 of number 2-kibble Ol' Roy). At my local WalMart, Ol' Roy is now $20.88 for 40 lb (which is $0.52/lb), and the following raw diet I am listing can be put together for only $0.50/lb. Here are the items:



Food Item.............................Cost Per Meal

Raw Chicken Quarters (8 oz)..............$0.290
1 Cup White Rice (8 oz)......................$0.087
Whole Egg (2 oz)................................$0.121
Plain Yogurt (1.2 oz)...........................$0.079
1 Tsp Lard (1/6th oz)..........................$0.013
½ Vitamin Pill (0 oz)............................$0.014

19.2 oz meal........................................ $0.60 = Total Cost


* WalMart offers 10-lb bags of chicken quarters for $5.78, which pans-out to be only about $0.58/lb.
* You can get 20 lb of Matma white rice for $13.12 at WalMart also. Keep in mind that 1/3 cup of rice grains makes a full cup of cooked rice (after you add 2/3-cup of water and heat it). There are 50.5 cups of rice grains in the 20-lb sack, which after adding water make 151.5 cups of rice for $13.12, making each cup of rice cost only $0.087 (just under nine cents a cup).
* You can also get a carton of 60 (5-dozen) eggs for $7.24 (which comes to $0.97/lb), and each egg weighs about 2 oz (or about 12.1 cents per egg).
* You can buy a quart of "Great Value" plain yogurt for about $1.57 each (which is about $0.79/lb), and it has been my experience that you can scoop out about 20 heaping tablespoons per container, which is about 7.9 cents per serving.
* You can also get a bottle of 300 Equate Multi-Vitamin pills for $8.42. Since a little dog doesn’t need the full horse pill, you can cut each vitamin in half, which means you get 600 multi-vitamins for just over eight bucks (or $0.014/pill). The best way to feed the half-vitamin pill is to stuff it in a teaspoon of lard.
* You can get a 4-lb tub of Armour Lard for $4.82, and since 4 lb = 64 oz, and since 1 tsp = 1/6th of an ounce, this means you get 384 teaspoon servings for less than five bucks, or $0.013 per serving (just over one cent).

This means the above meal would cost 29 cents + 8.7 cents + 12.1 cents + 7.9 cents + 1.3 cents + 1.4 cents which would equal a total cost of 60.4 cents for 19.2 oz of feed, which translates to just over $0.030/ounce—or just over $0.50/lb—and it’s still a better meal compared to just about any commercial kibble.


That’s right, you can shop at WalMart and feed your dogs a low budget raw diet for less than what it costs to feed Ol’ Roy, the lousiest feed on the market, and yet it is better for your dogs than virtually any high-end kibble. You don't need to go to butchers, slaughterhouses, or any other inconvenient spot for many folks ... you can get all of these things right at WalMart.

Just purchase a crock pot for the rice (also at WalMart), in a size commensurate with the number of dogs you have (1 cup of rice per dog), and you will be saving money AND feeding your dogs better. There is simply no excuse to feed kibble anymore with today's prices.

Yes, there are raw diets better than this; again, my point was to provide a LOW BUDGET ("anyone can get it") raw diet for kennel situations.

All you need is a meat cleaver, the crock pot, and a cutting board. Lay the number of eggs, vitamins, chicken pieces out there ... and stack a buncha bowls ... and you can feed a yard of dogs better than any kibble ... for LESS MONEY than any kibble.

Good luck,

[TrueBlueLacys]

I think it is awesome that so many people are willing to try raw! Just remember, even if you are switching to a better diet, it can take the dogs time to adjust. Some dogs don't miss a beat, others take a week or two to get on track. Give it a month or two and you'll see a positive change.

I see the difference every day. I get constant compliments on Sadie's coat. She is just over 2 years old and her teeth are perfectly white without a hint of bad breath. More importantly, her energy is just unreal. Last weekend it took running 50 miles in two days to make her tired. She makes it through every hunt without a problem and bounces back within a day.

Yes, a lot of that is her personality, but raw capitalizes on the way dogs turn food into energy. If their diet is primarily protein and fat, their bodies can properly metabolize the calories, resulting in a steady stream of energy. But the carbohydrates in kibble are processed sporadically which leads to the inevitable energy crash. Real meat also encourages tissue generation to rebuild muscle that is lost during a hard hunt. And because the nutrients are leached out through cooking and preservatives, your dog actually gets the vitamins and minerals they need without a bunch of chemicals. Basically, when you buy meat, you are buying pure fuel. When you buy kibble, you're wasting a lot of money on filler.

Along those lines, I'm of the prey model school, which means you don't need to add anything extra to a raw diet. Meat alone is fine. You just need to make sure you get some variety and approximately the right ratio of muscle meat (80-85%), edible bones (10-15%) and organs (5-10% with half of that from liver). You don't need to hit those every meal, but over time that should be your goal. Feeding a variety of meat sources will help with that, plus the diversity is great for maximizing nutrition. Duck, fish, turkey… all those are excellent ideas.

This is my favorite site for answering myths about feeding raw: http://www.rawfed.com/myths/index.html. Yes, it is geared towards pet owners, but all the information is there to apply it to hunting dogs.

[Black Gold]

Puppies..........

As soon as they want to leave momma's milk and try chewing on what is in her bowl.....Once the pups start eating 100% on their own you need to remember to feed them the same percentage of what their estimated adult weight will be.  A 12 week old puppy that will be close to a hundred pound dog when full grown should be fed 2 pounds of RAW per day if you decide to go with 2%.....It will be fed the same amount it's whole life.....It may not eat it all in one sitting like an adult but will finish it during the day (if its not swiped by others)

[Cull Buck]

I learned alot from this thread.  Thanks everyone.

[L3Outdoors]

This is good info that hunting dog owners should know.

What is Creatine? First, what Creatine is not. Creatine is not a kooky California fad, or the latest health nut potion. Just the opposite, Creatine is a scientifically validated food supplement. Moreover, Creatine is a more than a supplement; it is actually a lost nutrient from the wild food chain of wolves and wild dogs.

Creatine is a natural element of the wild food chain. Creatine is stored mainly in muscle and in nerve tissues in both humans and dogs.

The canine body obtains Creatine in two ways. First, after eating protein, the dog’s body links two amino acids to form Creatine. In this way, the canine body makes its own Creatine. The second way dogs obtain Creatine is from the protein foods they eat. Creatine is naturally occurring in the canine diet in meats. After eating meat, some of the Creatine is absorbed. So the dog obtains Creatine two ways. First, the body makes some of its own. Second, Creatine is extracted from the meat dogs eat.

The First Clue- In 1832, French researchers noted muscle tissue from wild foxes contained about ten times the Creatine as the same tissue of caged foxes. Since it appeared both fox groups received approximately the same diet, it was concluded physical activity accumulated Creatine in muscle tissue. In other words, wild animals, because they're forced to move for survival, store more Creatine than sedentary animals.

Wild vs. Supermarket Meats- Other researchers examining the relationship between domestic and wild animals within the same species have noted striking differences in lipid content and profile depending on whether the animals are fed wild or domestic diets. This difference within the same species, influenced solely by diet, suggests that there are significant but subtle differences in wild and domestic meats.

One of the most important differences in wild and domestic meats appears to be Creatine content. Although more research remains to be conducted, it can be said that all meat is not the same. Clearly, meat is much more than a mere vehicle for dietary protein.

Based on studies by Mesch and other researchers, it appears that wild dogs can "wolf" up to several kilos of fresh wild meat at a sitting. Since muscle tissue is the primary repository of Creatine, it can be reasonably said that wolves consume relatively large amounts of Creatine when lucky enough to make a kill, or scavenge. Based on French research, this wild meat may contain more Creatine than domestic meats. At any rate, dogs enjoy meat and will eat large amounts at almost any opportunity. With every bite of meat they take, Mother Nature makes sure they get Creatine, too.

It can also be said that dogs are evolutionary-designed to consume not just meat, but also the Creatine within the meat as part of Nature's wisdom. Interestingly, the first major Creatine study in America was conducted on dogs in the early 1920's at Cornell University. Scientists found a sharp rise in protein/nitrogen retention when exogenous Creatine was supplied in the diet. Increasing protein retention is important because it is stored in muscle tissue, and less is lost through the kidneys.

But unlike meat, and especially wild meat, commercial dog food contains very little Creatine. This may be one reason why meat diets, most recently advocated by Dr. Billinghurst, and others over the years, report meat-based or meat-supplemented diets as providing more health benefits than dry commercial dog food alone.

The lack of Creatine in commercial dog food, and the replacement of it in meat, may be a part of Nature's wisdom of feeding meat to dogs. So when you feed meat, you provide much more than just protein and amino acids; you replace "lost" wild nutrients missing from commercial dog food. Science is just now beginning to understand "why" meat is so beneficial and productive to dogs. One of these "lost" factors lost in modern foods, but contained in meat, is certainly Creatine.

So when you feed meat to your dog--especially raw meat-- you're also supplementing Creatine because Creatine is built into the molecular structure of meat-part of the package. It's clear that Creatine intake is NOT new for dogs. Actually, the absence of Creatine is new. Until commercial dog foods came into being, dogs consumed Creatine in the meat they ate from our plates. With modern dog foods, Creatine intake virtually stopped.

[Wmwendler]

Funny story about creatine.  A couple weeks ago my brother had dumped some old creatine weight gainer stuff in the compost pile which is in the back yard where my kennels are.  When I turned my gyp loose she ran right to the pile and started eating something and came out with a bunch of white powder on her face so I caught her up worried it might be some kind of chemical or something to speed up the composting process.  Called him and said what the blank did you put in there and he said it was just creatine.  She must have been craving it because I could not keep her away from it.

On Annother note.....Don't over look the larger bones from bigger animals like deer or hogs as a source for the dogs.  You can bash it whith the flat side of and axe head my dad has been doing it for ever.  The dogs love the marrow that is in side, he just puts it on an old bo'dark post and busts it up that way with an axe.

Waylon

[Black Gold]

GETTING DOGS TO EAT ORGAN MEAT AND FISH RAW

I've got a couple dogs that turn their noses up at organ meat (liver mainly) and raw fish.  Here are a few methods that I've found that help get them to eat it.

Freezing it in a bag with some small pieces of chicken to create a frozen block of meat.  This works well for one of my dogs that refuses to eat liver.  I chop it in cubes and chop the chicken in cubes and freeze in a zip-lock to make a frozen brick of meat.  I feed it frozen and as it thaws the dog will chew off bites.  I guess the juices (flavors) mix because she eats the whole thing.  I have another dog that does the same with fish.......funny how some dogs' taste differ.

I've found that on the few days a month that I want to feed organ meat or fish I need to cut back the day before on chicken so the dogs are a little more hungry than usual.  I also have to offer the organ meat and fish as their only option if it is not frozen because they will pick chicken first and then not be hungry enough to eat all the organ meat.  The only time I mix is if it is frozen together.  If you really have a hard-headed dog that refuses to eat you can always grind it and mix it with hamburger or ground chicken.....This is the only time I would ever feed ground meat......Go to e-bay and look for a hand crank grinder....usually pretty cheap.  Being that I only feed organ meat a few times a month you can spend a couple hours grinding and bag/freeze you enough to last months.

Some dogs will scarf it down no matter what it is.....Those make it easy.....


Sources for RAW:

Taxidermist.....You'd be supprised at the amount of meat that goes into a taxidermist's dumpster in a week.  Deer and exotic necks are brought in on every animal and have to be cut off and discarded.  I got an elk neck a few weeks ago that had to be over 40 pounds!

Poultry Processing Plants.......A few in Gonzales that I use.....I can get organic raised chicken cadges (back and ribcadges) ...a 50 pound case for $16.00 or necks for the same price.

Butcher Shops.......Butcher shops produce tons of scraps each week.  Get to know your butcher and he may be able to work you a deal.

Hunting/Fishing......Self explanitory.....We as hunters are capable of bringing in a LOT of meat in a years time.....Get creative!

Sale Barns/Ranchers...... Every rancher and sale barn deals with cattle/horses from time to time that aren't sick, but just OLD....I wouldn't hesitate in "disposing" of any 4-legged creature to help someone out.....That is A LOT OF MEAT!

Use your imagination....there is a TON of meat available every day.....go find it....