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leonidas
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I don't think people don't understand GENETICS....Better genetics means out of a litter you SHOULD have less culls......Training now is SOME dogs will try harder then others period.... Theres so many variables to this tho....but it starts with genetics.... Every now and then I hear someone say that training is the most important factor in making a hog dog over genetics.
What are yall's thoughts?
How do you train a dog to go out 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, a mile, looking for a hog?
How do you train a dog to take a track and stay with it until the hog is found?
How do you train a dog to stay with a running hog for many miles and many hours until it's bayed?
That's all genetics to me, you can't train the hunt, drive and bottom into a dog.
Putting a handle on your dog and trash breaking is the only training involved in my opinion.
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TexasHogDogs
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this topic is prone for some differences of opinion... so no offense meant here...any dog that is exposed to a hog enough and taught to want a hog bad enough or ran with a dog with bottom and range and such will pick it up. Its not very hard to teach a dog range and bottom and to find hogs, if you have the skills to do it  you can take a young dog that wont even leave your side and pen it up with a long range dog for a couple weeks and the young dog will roll out with that dog 9 out of 10 times and pick up that range, same with the bottom and drive and all that. ask yourself out of all the dogs with so called great genetics how many young dogs just naturally do it on their own, without puttin them with another dog? Are they put all by theirself till they are old enough to hunt then just turn them loose all by theirself and they have the range and bottom and go bay hogs and from then on they just have to be taught not to run trash and to handle right? thatll actually do it and prove it instead just posting that they will? its a mindset that just cuz it has good blood it has to b the blood makin it such a great dog and not the training or other dogs its huntin with rubbin off on them...I been raisin dogs a long time and i like breedin for genetics and traits within a bloodline, but the fact of the matter is you can go spend alot of money on a finished dog and hunt a total $h!t eater with that dog and make a top dog out it if you had the desire to do it. breedin one or two dogs that you happen to get that are decent dogs is not breeding genetics or desired traits, 2 or 3 generations of dogs are not gonna b (line bred) and a top breeding program where you have natural talent every time with little or no culls, more luck than anything although there are some older lines that have far higher percentages... 20-30+ yr old lines, too many people luck up on a decent dog these days and start their own (line) of dogs and have no idea what they are doin or if that decent dog was the only decent dog from the litter or anything else. theres a few good guys on here that know what they are doin and talkin about, and alot of people that base their opinion on the popular opinion or what a certain person thinks to get brownie points, im sure my opinion is not the popular opinion and if it was then nobody would say so but a real dog man can make a top notch dog out of nothing as well as breed one to have it in his blood...genetics can raise percentages, bring pride to your pack, and make you proud of them, its a great theory and hobby, and i been breedin genetics a long time, but a good dog is born, a great dog is made  JMO noelle noelle noelle, I could not disagree with you more! Wrong wrong wrong . No offence man but I dont even know what to say here. I dont know much man but I would not even know were to start with your thread up above. Hope this dont piss you off and I dont need a brownie point but its just full of holes man . |
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 07:18:37 pm by TexasHogDogs »
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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noelle
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Na I don't get pissed off... So many different opinions and different levels of hunters and different expectations in dogs... Lol never gonna b a definate answer cuz everyones opinion varies and too many variables in the topic... I know what works and so do most... Hog huntin is the real passion, the opinion sharing is just a past time... Long as Ur catching hogs and proud of your dogs then nobody elses opinion matters in the long run
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noelle
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I'm even more curious now as to why you would consider breeding that Molly dog into your line. Shouldnt you just train them better...after all you said you can train them to hunt as far as you like.
Honestly if I had been line breeding a line of dogs for 40 years and was still trying to put some range on them I would have scrapped them all about 35 years prior and started over with something completely different....but that's just me.
You also seem really hung up on the pups that will roll and hunt on their own. Once again, I never personally said that mine would consistently find hogs (yet) but I can assure you I could start hunting these pups alone and in short time they would. You see they were born with the hunt and prey drive "built in". They don't need an old dog to make them go, nor do they need one to make them bay. What running an older dog does is teach them to trail better...something they would eventually figure out on their own, it just greatly speeds the process.
Maybe you just haven't hunted or worked with some really well bred pups.
And in the words of Forrest Gump...That's all I have to say about that.
well when I primarily hunted on horses I didn't want dogs that ranged out past 500yds... And Molly has a new boyfriend and ain't breeding to mine anyhow... And her training is comin along nicely lol. Unless u want to buy her then how bout loose concern for her and whatever I do with her is my concern and nobody elses... Don't see how it really affects you either way as I don't recall this thread Bein about her nor do I recall the request of your opinion on her and I still wanna see your 6mth old pups go a mile and consistently bay everything they find all alone with no training... Better yet I got more money than brains I'll buy all of them that will. I'm not startin a pissin match with you over it cuz I believe most of the braggin is just talk,all b/s aside tho I would b Interrested in your line of dogs and learning more about them if they truly are as good as u claim |
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noelle
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As far as training being 90% of a dog...I'll respectfully disagree. I have 6 month old pups that will consistantly roll and hunt a mile deep and bay anything that moves, yet I refuse to take credit for any type of training. I haven't done anything but put feed to these dogs...seldom even touch them. It's breeding and genetics that makes them what they are. Your right...pride and satisfaction do play a part in my breeding program, but there's only one person my dogs have to satisfy and thats the one buying the feed. I could care less what anyone else thinks because I'm honestly not in the market to sell dogs. Those were your exact words Bryant... I propose a truce... U drop the Molly dog and I'll drop the pups I dislike making things personal it's all just opinions and I share some of yours as well as everyone elses... Lol can't we all just get along |
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Scott
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Just a thought about genetics after sorting thru this thread:
Genes can express themselves differently amongst siblings...that's why linebred and inbred dogs can still show differences in a variety of ways. A certain sibling may show more traits of a certain dog in it's pedigree than the others. Yes, they have the same stacked genes, but they are expressing themselves differently amongst the siblings. Hence the reason your gonna have culls in every litter. The other thing with inbreeding is your also doubling up on the bad genes (hence the culls). Because of this, inbreeding can be used as a tool to attempt to rid yourself of the unwanted chit in your dogs.
Also as a side note: when I think of training in the way that some are mentioning it here...I would expect more involvement from the human for it to be actual "training". If all I have to do is kennel a young dog with an older finished dog, then turn them loose in the woods together and I get the desired results...I don't consider that training at all. It required almost zero effort on my part. How do you (the human) actually train a dog to bay (A dog that won't bay with another dog in or out of a pen)? Do you get in the pen and bay the hog to show the dog what's expected?
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noelle
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Good points Scott... But training is training whether it b by a human or another dog... And the post is about training vs genetics... That to me means all training the dog receives... Human or dog... And why is there even such a thing as training a dog if it's all genetics? With as many proven lines as there are and so many folks startin their own line there should b plenty pups to go around for everyone and delete any kinda training at all... Which brings to mind another question, why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great?
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cantexduck
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Those were your exact words Bryant... I propose a truce... U drop the Molly dog and I'll drop the pups I dislike making things personal it's all just opinions and I share some of yours as well as everyone elses... Lol can't we all just get along I think your rite, I have 4, year old dogs that just go on their own, will find a hog, bay good... no training, its amazing, and most of my older dogs were that way as well, it just came natural, some have to be trained, i dont really waste the time on one anymore once i give it time to see it dont come natural to it, its gonna start some talkin, but im gonna go ahead and say it... If you breed proven dogs from proven lines it will pay off, not on every pup, but if its bred into them then they are alot more likely to just pick it up on their own. And just because you have two good dogs and breed them, that dont make a good set of pups, what if they were the only two good dogs out of either of their background? It takes years of dedication to raise an entire line of proven dogs to get to where you can start throwing good percentages of naturally talented pups consistently You said the above on aug 7 2009 under the name hog tied. here is a link to that thread.http://www.easttexashogdoggers.com/forum/index.php?topic=7688.msg66683#msg66683 So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up. |
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 08:28:27 pm by cantexduck »
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There's a coon, nevermind, thats Buster.
"So I pawned my lacy off to my girlfriend. That should teach her to meet men off match.com"
Rich.
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chainrated
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It's simple, If you could "train" any old dog to be a hogdog someone would already be doing it and capitalizing on all the money to be made. NOBODY is doin it..
Why in the world are yall not scooping up every dog you can get your hands on and training it to be a hogdog and selling it? Can someone please answer that?
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Our houses are protected by the good lord and a gun, you might meet em both if you show up here unwelcome son..
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noelle
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Chainrated I'm sure there's folks sellin dogs left and right somewhere or another but who wants to fool with just training dogs for folks? Ain't no time to hunt if your just trainin shoot I don't even like trainin my own although I mostly just put em with another dog and let them go when I do...mr mason trains lots of dogs... That's the only person I know that does, ain't enough money in it for me but I'm sure others do it as well
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TexasHogDogs
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The simple anwser is it can't be done. Thats just all it is to it ! This is crazy man .
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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Bryant
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... why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great?
Hahaha...because there are a lot of people who would try to reproduce them, call them "their line" and attempt to make a buck off someone else's hard work and dedication. I'll also say that most people with good lines also don't breed until they have a need. Usually pups are kept, or if there DOES happen to be any extras they are spoken for long before the breeding ever took place. People with good lines also VERY seldom buy dogs. |
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« Last Edit: July 25, 2011, 08:52:10 pm by Bryant »
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A truly rich man is one whose children rush to fill his arms even though his hands are empty.
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noelle
Strike Dog
Online
Posts: 424
catahoula/shorthair pointer hog dog
« on: July 21, 2011, 11:13:13 pm »
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gotta male 3yr old half german shorthair pointer half catahoula, hes short to med range in my book, (300-600yds) he hunts hard and covers the woods good. will stick with a hog good, no mouth on track, not rough will stop one but thats about it, hes medium sized bout 50#, pretty good mouth, decent nose, not the fastest dog but not the slowest either, trash broke... got him and he just dont suit me, guy wanted 1200$ for him but i swapped a tracking system for him so i have about 600$ in him id take $600 cash or swap for a longer range dog...hound/cur or cur or hound or something... no pups, no junk, hes not a junky dog and i wont swap him for one that is. ----------------
Noelle why don't you just train this dog you have for sale to suit you? Why don't you train him to be long range like you want?
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Our houses are protected by the good lord and a gun, you might meet em both if you show up here unwelcome son..
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noelle
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... why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great?
Hahaha...because there are a lot of people who would try to reproduce them, call them "their line" and attempt to make a buck off someone else's hard work and dedication. I'll also say that most people with good lines also don't breed until they have a need. Usually pups are kept, or if there DOES happen to be any extras they are spoken for long before the breeding ever took place. ;DFinally we agree on somethin |
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cantexduck
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So which is is? Natural or training............................................................ Make your mind up.
Still waiting.............. In the past two years have you gone from a solid line of dogs with natural drive to having to train them to hunt. |
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There's a coon, nevermind, thats Buster.
"So I pawned my lacy off to my girlfriend. That should teach her to meet men off match.com"
Rich.
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chainrated
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Chainrated I'm sure there's folks sellin dogs left and right somewhere or another Yeah there are plenty of them. They are called Dog Peddlers.. They got plenty of "trained", finished, jam up hogdogs for sale for 500 bucks.. |
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Our houses are protected by the good lord and a gun, you might meet em both if you show up here unwelcome son..
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Scott
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And why is there even such a thing as training a dog if it's all genetics? With as many proven lines as there are and so many folks startin their own line there should b plenty pups to go around for everyone and delete any kinda training at all... Which brings to mind another question, why are folks with good lines and line bred dogs the ones that don't distribute their pups to just anybody? I know the answer for me but what's some other answers? Are they really not that great?
To me there really isn't any training involved...it's exposure. Not that my dogs are anything special, but I can tell you why I don't distribute my pups to just anyone...I need someone who is gonna do right by the dog and give me good feedback on a variety of different things during the process of it making the cut, or cull. I guess that means if I don't trust you...you won't get one of mine. |
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noelle
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Number one I dislike a Catahoula dog, two I didn't want him to begin with just swapped a trackin system for him to a friend that needed one... And the feller that got him loves him... He suits him but I didn't like him... Simple as that
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chainrated
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People who have a good bloodline of dogs don't sell them to just anybody because they know what kind of work and time it takes to breed a line of high percentage dogs. They know you can't "train" dogs to do what theirs are Bred to do...
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Our houses are protected by the good lord and a gun, you might meet em both if you show up here unwelcome son..
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Mike
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hogtied
Strike Dog
Offline
Posts: 330
Re: training vs. natural instinct
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2009, 10:44:21 pm » Quote Modify Remove Split Topic
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your rite, you cant train the hunt into them... just the fine tuning
Report to moderator 74.193.1.224 (?)
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may your life be free from trouble, like a slick catch and a double!!!
Ha ha ha ha ha... it's amazing ain't it.
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