Training vs Genetics.

[noelle]

well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls

[UNDERDOG]

well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls

With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended)

[noelle]

Opinions are like buttholes everyone has one and most stink.
Hogdoggers usually have the largest.

You folks that don't think genetics are very much the makeup of most great dogs than keep buying them $30 pups and waisting 2 yrs of feed and your time on something thats never gonna be what you want.
If having 30 dogs tied to every tree in a yard and telling everyone you have 30 hog dogs is your deal than go for it.

I will keep my money on genetics and keep producing proven stock where in a couple of yrs look back and say I have something and not flooding this site with all my culls.

any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs. dont raise a bunch of pups till i need some and have plenty culls afterwards. I play around with outcrosses and such from time to time same as most but i have been around enough dogs to safely say genetics give higher percentages but it wont make an outstanding dog all by itself

[Kessling Kennels]

Real simple.
You can make a pot of soup with great ingredence like beef ,chicken,etc... and fine tune it with all the spices in the world and you will have yourself a great pot of soup this is genetics.
Or you can put a turd in the pot and pour all the same great ingredence in it and stir your arms off and at the end of the day you still have a Turd.

[chainrated]

With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended)

It's just that simple, Genetics reduce the cull percentage .
Like I said it's all about percentages.
There will always be culls no matter how good a breeding program you have or how good a trainer you are.
About the only people that will try to claim no culls are dog jockeys...

[Centexhogdogger]

Kessling kennels
I got a gyp I'll put against about any dog!
So u acting like just cause ppl get villa to train
Then they won't have hog dogs..
Well I have made few culls great dogs
One of my best was a catahoula who had no hunting
In his blood at all!

[chainrated]

any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs.

LOL.. So your dogs are linebred? And have been for 40 yrs? Why?   Surely not for genetics..

[noelle]

well chainrated were not talkin bout horses thats a whole other arguement lol Im curious as to why there is culls from a line that just hunts outstanding off genetics alone... if the genetics are that strong in that theory there would be no culls

With that statement it don't seem like you been fooling with dogs as long as you say you have....there are culls in all performane animals,good genetics help reduce the cull percentage. (no offence intended)

well underdog i imagine i have fooled with as many if not more dogs than you, yes i find it offensive and i think the same about you. that bein said sounds like your quoting me from earlier when i said genetics just raise the percentages of having good dogs... you just turned it around and said lowered the cull instead of raising the percentage on good ones. there isnt any question about it raising the percentage of good dogs cuz it does i agree, but how many naturally exceptional hog dogs are born and never trained at all? with all the time and money breeding dogs to get such a small return of true talent that has it all with no training i think you could do a little training and have some better dogs than if you just wait for that rare prodigy to evolve ever so often...you cant just turn a pup loose on its own and it be exceptional, no hands on training mayb, but not without influence from another dog

[noelle]

any pups on my yard are raised there, got 9 dogs on my yard, 2 outside dogs outta proven bloodlines, a catch dog, a full finished birddog, and the rest are line bred at my house and have been tight bred for close to 40 yrs, and i feel safe saying i own hog dogs.

LOL.. So your dogs are linebred? And have been for 40 yrs? Why?   Surely not for genetics..

well chainrated if you read my first posts i agree with the line breeding and genetics theory, raise them for build, nose, range, pride... lotta different reasons... but i never claimed my dogs would make exceptional hog dogs with no training except to trash break them... I know theres culls and i know a dog needs training as well as some good blood, not strictly one or the other. But it can be done and i have seen it done just gotta have the patience which generally i lack

[Centexhogdogger]

I not sayin genetics don't play role
I'm sayin u can get a good dog by training
A good dog by breading.
Or bad dog by training
Bad by breading

There is never a def answer
It's trial and error..

Like I said EVERY DOG is different no matter bread or bloodline

[Kessling Kennels]

Im not call out anyone.
I have several great dogs myself,I have been fortuate enough in my life that I can afford what I want.
I have a YBMC that showed up at my ranch that would not look at a hog and now after 2 yrs worth of pounding him in a hogs face He is a decent dog.Total training no will own his own.
My point to all is If you really studied genetics you would learn that the Percentage of getting a dog thats less desirable are alot less  with good genetics ,rather than breeding to dogs that you think would make a cute couple.

I have nothing to prove to anyone I own some really good dogs and have paid the price and done the stupid rookie mistakes as well.
If I would have started with the genetics from the begining I would have acheived my goal sooner in life.

Centex-That gyp must have had some desired genetic from something or she would not be as good as you say.

[noelle]

Real simple.
You can make a pot of soup with great ingredence like beef ,chicken,etc... and fine tune it with all the spices in the world and you will have yourself a great pot of soup this is genetics.
Or you can put a turd in the pot and pour all the same great ingredence in it and stir your arms off and at the end of the day you still have a Turd.

lmao cant help but like that breakdown on it

[Noah]

Ahhh... excellent debate gentlemen!!    Home recovering from a looong wknd offshore... and just couldn't resist jumpin' into this one...   

The reason this is on the mind is because it is not a cut and dry subject... LOTS of variables... one might even go so far as to say infinitely...

Genetics, OBVIOUSLY, play a HUGE role to the extent of a dog "wanting" to hunt, or "wanting" to please his master... and there is a HUGE difference in the two...

Any hunter should strive to start off with the best genetic specimen available...  but never overlook an animal because he might not be out of "superlines".   Those same "superlines" were created by people that picked out certain genetics from unknown dogs and concentrated them. 

As most of you know, I am of the trainer's view on this and I will leave it at that... 

All you can do is try and breed a dog to want to/physically be able to...  and training/exposure is, in my opinion, what takes them to the next level from there... along with a hell of a lot of luck... 

BTW, I tend to agree with most noelle and USHOG are sayin'....

noelle, where you out of?

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Training can make a dog, but hunting style and bay style comes from genetics.

[Kessling Kennels]

Training can make a dog, but hunting style and bay style comes from genetics.

I second that one!

[grunterhunter8]

Kessling kennels
I got a gyp I'll put against about any dog!
So u acting like just cause ppl get villa to train
Then they won't have hog dogs..
Well I have made few culls great dogs
One of my best was a catahoula who had no hunting
In his blood at all!

If he was a catahoula, then he had hunting in his blood...I think the question is redundant. Genetics are the key to everything. You can't train a dog to do anything unless it possesses the genetic potential to do so. Those arguing that training is more important are just arguing for genetics. If a dog hunts a mile out without ever being "trained" to hunt a mile out, this is genetic. If you were somehow able to "train" a dog to hunt a mile out, well then you were only able to do so because the dog had the genetic ability to hunt a mile out...On the other hand, you can't train dogs to fly...Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Lots of variables to consider, but genetics and certain genetic traits are easier to control for/isolate when considering the determining factor for how/why a dog performs.

[noelle]

I not sayin genetics don't play role
I'm sayin u can get a good dog by training
A good dog by breading.
Or bad dog by training
Bad by breading

There is never a def answer
It's trial and error..

Like I said EVERY DOG is different no matter bread or bloodline

well said, no doubt it raises percentages, but the topic is saying genetics alone make every aspect of a dog except the handling and trash breaking which is just not true and only someone new to raising pups could think it is in my opinion, yes there is a better chance of genetics making a outstanding dog opposed to just a good dog... but does anyone really believe that genetics alone can make, train, and finish an exceptional dog consistently without any training whatsoever besides trash breaking??? thats the point im tring to make and keep gettin off track

[Mike]

If he was a catahoula, then he had hunting in his blood...I think the question is redundant. Genetics are the key to everything. You can't train a dog to do anything unless it possesses the genetic potential to do so. Those arguing that training is more important are just arguing for genetics. If a dog hunts a mile out without ever being "trained" to hunt a mile out, this is genetic. If you were somehow able to "train" a dog to hunt a mile out, well then you were only able to do so because the dog had the genetic ability to hunt a mile out...On the other hand, you can't train dogs to fly...Maybe I'm looking at it wrong. Lots of variables to consider, but genetics and certain genetic traits are easier to control for/isolate when considering the determining factor for how/why a dog performs.

That pretty much sums it up right there.

Without genectics, all the training/exposure is pointless... you can't train the "hunt" into a dog.

[Kessling Kennels]

That pretty much sums it up right there.

Without genectics, all the training/exposure is pointless... you can't train the "hunt" into a dog.
[/quote]

Well said!!

[UNDERDOG]

 well said, no doubt it raises percentages, but the topic is saying genetics alone make every aspect of a dog except the handling and trash breaking which is just not true and only someone new to raising pups could think it is in my opinion, yes there is a better chance of genetics making a outstanding dog opposed to just a good dog... but does anyone really believe that genetics alone can make, train, and finish an exceptional dog consistently without any training whatsoever besides trash breaking??? thats the point im tring to make and keep gettin off track

The good handfull of exeptional working dogs I have had; hog dog,beagle rabbit dogs,coon dogs hound or cur,bulldogs and protection dogs all had one thing in common ...good genetics/breeding from good/proven dogs before them and they all also had one other thing in common....they made you look good,all you did was piont them in the right direction and and give a little guidance per say. Not much "training" involved...