Hogdog culls or Cowdog gold

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

I have throughout the years had plenty of prospect hogdogs not make the grade on multiple training levels.  I have noticed a very high percentage of these dogs to be salvaged into top notch cowdogs. The question being to you prefer to cull completely or attempt to see if the failed prospect will flourish in a new line of baydog.

Do not misunderstand my point of view on culling a complete non working product

I stay the same.....If they don't work they don't eat my feed or anyone elses for that matter. The product has to work or it is not a" Working Dog"  

Let's here what works for you

Enjoy

[airduster29]

x2 100%  but I try diffrent game far as bears or bobcats or send to some one that can try them on cows since I not in that line of work these days

[maverick10]

YBM I AINT TO WORRY IF THESE PUPS DONT TURN OUT HOG DOGS CAUSE THE COME FROM A LINE OF COWDOGS MY MALE DOG FOUND A HERD A CATTLE WHEN HE WAS A PUP BUT A LIL WHOPPING HE TURN INTO A HELL OF A HOG DOG

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Cull -  To me a BMC should shine at both as well as guarding my family and stuff. I am breeding for a all around " Working Dog " like they were intended to be, maybe I'll cull some dogs that would be good at one thing or another, but I'm not trying to raise " good " dogs I'm trying to raise " great dogs " and if they eat my diamond dog feed there gonna be above average all around or there culled.

[jerryg]

Waylon, 

I have a question based on your comments, no disrespect meant...Please explain "all around working dog" are you saying that your dogs will excel at all disciplines?  Cows, hogs, guard dogs, bloodtracking, squirrels, etc or do you mean disciplines within what that particular breed was bred for?  I breed for one particular discipline, blood tracking. Can my dogs hunt and find pigs...sure, but if I don't care if they make mediocre hog dogs per my standards.

Jerryg

[warrent423]

I don't own any blackmouth curdogs, but the curs I feed are used to work both, cattle and hogs.

[Bryant]

I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task.  Reason being, what is desired in one task might be unnecessary in another.  For instance...pen dogs are bred to work tight and close...a trait not so much desired in woods dogs.  Perhaps cow dogs are not bred specifically with so much hunting drive.

In a perfect world, I too would like to breed all around working dogs but I'm sure not going to start culling my hog dog pups because they won't tree.

I see your point YBM...perhaps some of the pups that don't make the cut due to lack of hunting drive could end up making nice cow dogs.  The problem as I see it is that same dog gets in the wrong hands and someone starts trying to breed the hog dogs carrying your name.

[tmatt]

Waylon, I would rather have a dog that is great at one thing instead of being decent at all things. I believe it is impossible to breed a dog that is great at all disciplines. As stated before some things that are wanted out of a pen dog is not desirable in a woods dog and certain traits you want in a hog dog may not be what you want in a cowdog. I also think that if you made the breeding you should also find where the pups fit in or work the best. Some will not work out at all but others will be great just maybe not at the discipline you expected. If they don't work as hog dogs then try them on cows if bred for cows and are too rough then put them on hogs. JMO

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task.  Reason being, what is desired in one task might be unnecessary in another.  For instance...pen dogs are bred to work tight and close...a trait not so much desired in woods dogs.  Perhaps cow dogs are not bred specifically with so much hunting drive.

In a perfect world, I too would like to breed all around working dogs but I'm sure not going to start culling my hog dog pups because they won't tree.

I see your point YBM...perhaps some of the pups that don't make the cut due to lack of hunting drive could end up making nice cow dogs.  The problem as I see it is that same dog gets in the wrong hands and someone starts trying to breed the hog dogs carrying your name.

Without a doubt I agree more than 100% with your point about falling into the wrong hands. Guess I should have explained my own perspective.  I like to see very few get to try their luck on cows off my dogs.  If they do work exceptionally for that purpose they go to family members or close friends that work cattle and have the understanding that if they don't turn out for them they are no longer working dogs. CULL or I will do it for them.

The other issue I believe the closest thing I can relate to is what I call a meat dog. One that basically does it all. Bays cows, hogs, trees and runs everthing in the woods. I had one long time back. Great dog on everything I used her for but the saying "Jacks of all trades and Masters of none" I believe fits best.

[Reuben]

I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task.  Reason being, what is desired in one task might be unnecessary in another.  For instance...pen dogs are bred to work tight and close...a trait not so much desired in woods dogs.  Perhaps cow dogs are not bred specifically with so much hunting drive.

In a perfect world, I too would like to breed all around working dogs but I'm sure not going to start culling my hog dog pups because they won't tree.

I see your point YBM...perhaps some of the pups that don't make the cut due to lack of hunting drive could end up making nice cow dogs.  The problem as I see it is that same dog gets in the wrong hands and someone starts trying to breed the hog dogs carrying your name.

x2 lots of cow dogs have been culled as hog dogs because they don't have the hunt to make hog dogs... was not required as a pasture cow dog trait. Matter of fact if the dog ranged out to the next ranchers herd it was a cull because it did not work closely with the cowboy working the herd.

I am not saying that some of these dogs won't work as hog dogs but they were selected for cow work and not for hog hunting.

I have seen some squirrel bred dogs that make awesome hog dogs. I guess if the dog gets excited for a small rodent in a tree that sometimes he can't see then he will go nuts on a hog. The question here...does the dog have the bottom to run a hog for 3 or 4 hours???

[waylon-N.E. OK]

I guess what I'm saying is this. My dogs better make top cow dogs if I use them on cattle, If I use them on hogs they better stand out there as well, no so so dogs, they better be good at it. If like my Lana dog they do both they better be above average at both, as far as protecting my house the same Hog- Cow hog/cow dogs better dang sure bite you if you walk into my yard with out me or my wife around.  In short I am breeding a dog that strives 100% to please me and do what it knows I want, This dog better make people stand up and make folks pay attention when he/she is at work. If they don't I'll cull them, maybe I expect to much, but if the dogs I raise are not above average at all given task I won't feed them. Simply put I won't feed a dog that is not good enough to breed and i won't breed a dog that is not above average all around at the jobs I give it.

Also I don't blood trail, or chase tree rats or man track or what ever but If I did i would expect these yeller dogs to be good at there job, if not I'd fire them quick 

[jerryg]

I am very particular with what I breed, I want a dog that excels at bloodtracking....they may be ok at hogs, cattle, etc. and thats fine by me, but they will only be given to certain individuals who will work them at other diciplins.  As some have stated, if they dont work, they get culled.  I want certain traits that may not be condusive to the guy hog hunting or looking for cattle.  The way I see it, the better my dogs, the higher my success rate when tracking wounded deer.  If my dogs are better than the next guy offering the service, well, I guess I will get called more often....same goes with folks utilizing dogs for finding cattle, hogs, etc.  If you have and breed all around dogs who "excel" at different diciplins I commend you.  I dont have those dogs, as that is not my overall goal.  

There are breeds who promote "all around dogs", I have yet to see an all around dog from that particular breed!  Maybe one day I will, and that is that I spent alot of time working and looking for one...

I guess in the end it all depends on opinion, someone may see a great dog in their blood tracking dog, where I only see an average dog. And yes, my dogs are average when it comes to others dogs..I seen it!! But every breeding I make, will be for the betterment of my dogs.    

Jerryg

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Cow dogs in my country had better have as much hunting range as any ones hog dogs. A good handler can and will control the range of his dogs while hunting for cattle so I have never understood the adage that cow dogs are short range or lack hunt because in a quality cow dog that simply is not true. Are there short range cow dogs with not much hunt, I am sure there are but they are culls in my book.

I raise dogs to do both jobs and they have got to be darn good at both to stay here. The job description for a cow dog is much more difficult than being a hog dog. So I find the opposite to be true, a dog that can't quite make the grade as a cow dog might make someone else a very nice hog dog. I will not keep a dog let alone breed a dog that is not gifted at both cattle work and hog hunting. But the cow dog job is the tuffer of the two and harder to produce.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

 " I believe it is impossible to breed a dog that is great at all disciplines "

 " I would think it impossible to breed a top-notch all around dog that excels at any given task. "

Well Sir's I respectfully disagree 100%, The men who trusted on the early BMC ( or Catahoulas for that fact ) demanded much to help them survive rough unsettled country and wouldn't/couldn't keep one string of cow dogs, one set of guard dogs, one set of tree dogs, one set of hog dogs ect. They kept very few dogs and those few were required to excel at many given task, perhaps we have lost sight of that and have bred the dogs down instead of up? In fact I'm sure of that. Perhaps I live in a fairy tale world where I expect my FEW dogs to perform above average at any given task I set before them, but I have seen that type of dog it came in a yellow package and made me a believer. I sound puffed up I'm sure and I might be, but once you have seen the bar set high it's hard for me to settle for a " Me to " dog. But my friends all say I'm to picky and expect to much from my dogs to so maybe your right, I'm trying to produce " Old Yeller " here on the double hub cap ranch and won't settle for less than that, when I reach that point in my own dogs and some day I will, I plan to reset the bar higher and carry on from there, if not I should not be breeding dog IMO.

God Bless, Waylon

[jerryg]

I agree that dogs at one time dogs "had" to work and earn their keep, whether it was finding hogs, catching rabbits, finding wounded deer, or finding cattle.  Familes depended on dogs to live.  Now we drive to HEB or the local grocery store to buy food....dogs are not a necessity, as they were at one time. Why feed 4 dogs when only one was a great dog that helped the family eat.  It was feed the other 3 or feed the family.  Natural selection, cull the worthless three dogs.   I dont think there are "many" folks who now depend on dogs to live.  Maybe modernization/technology has changed the way we breed dogs.  Seems folks have adapted to one or more areas or specialties and now breed the dogs to adapt to us......  

Jerryg

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

On the reverse aspect of what this topic is based around. I have observed and owned several complete cow dog failures.  Meaning wont bay cows if their life depended on it with 0 interest. Cross them over and were a complete no hesitation fireball with a deep burning drive to bay,hunt,and work hogs that appeared to be completely of natural talent. 

This is the explanation I guess I am trying to convey on either direction you are coming from. 

I have personally never had a hesitation in trialing a what's described as a cowdog cull until he has been scrubbed as a hogdog cull by my own hand. Most of mine naturally work both and have to be broken off one unless you desire both talents.  But again I have heavy roots originally of cowdog stock. 

Interesting views from all so far.

[Reuben]

I agree that dogs at one time dogs "had" to work and earn their keep, whether it was finding hogs, catching rabbits, finding wounded deer, or finding cattle.  Familes depended on dogs to live.  Now we drive to HEB or the local grocery store to buy food....dogs are not a necessity, as they were at one time. Why feed 4 dogs when only one was a great dog that helped the family eat.  It was feed the other 3 or feed the family.  Natural selection, cull the worthless three dogs.   I dont think there are "many" folks who now depend on dogs to live.  Maybe modernization/technology has changed the way we breed dogs.  Seems folks have adapted to one or more areas or specialties and now breed the dogs to adapt to us......  

Jerryg

x2...the old time mtn cur was developed and used as the all around dog but I have seen so many that do not look like curs any more. so many look like fiest dogs and at one time they looked more like plot curs.

Back in 1989 I started breeding mtn curs that treed coon and squirrel and ran bear but I used them for hog only. I am sure that over the years some would tree but did not test for it. I do know I had to break them off of cows...


I know a man that has raised yellow cow dogs for 40 years or so and he calls his dogs in and out by name when baying cows but I wouldn't feed one as a hog dog. I have seen enough cow dogs that I wouldn't feed for hog dogs.

A cur dog should wind long range and have a good nose and hunt 2-6 hundred yard circles around me and find hogs that other dogs miss and then run the hog for hours if needed and I am talking about get in the thick stuff to bay a hog. If you breed cow dogs that can do that then I want on the list... I see hogs get in some thick and large briar patches and the average hog dog will quit and look elsewhere.

[bayed hard hog dogs]

Waylon,  I am gonna back you up on this fight I have seen and have had dogs that are excellent at both cows and hogs, but I have no cows and no need to run cow dogs,so I choose to break them off of cows, but as said by my long time friend above ybm his line of dogs have a passion to except both rolls as hog dogs or cow dogs or both but we choose to break them off of cows, I have also seen this line of dogs not look twice at a cow and be eaten up with baying hogs, as alot of you no my line of dogs came from Myles ( yellow black mask ) and I am a strong believer in his line because it has been and does prove its self.
All I am saying is that waylon in my books is right with the right line of dog you can do all.

And to reuben I don't no how much cow hunting you have done but around here we have guys that get payed good money to go find wild or stray cows and trust me thay have grate dogs that go along way through some rough stuff and the dogs do not quit because the going gets tough. And thay also go into thick brush and brier patches even ponds (or tanks to some people ) and trust me a long horn cow that has turned wild and is 900 lbs and ain't seen anyone in a year or ever can be very deadly.

And to ybm I would cull before I sold one knowing it was not gonna be a dog and if I couldn't get one broken off cows yes would let it go for a cow dog. But I cull if there on my yard and don't work a hog im not in the cow dog businesses.

[Reuben]

Waylon,  I am gonna back you up on this fight I have seen and have had dogs that are excellent at both cows and hogs, but I have no cows and no need to run cow dogs,so I choose to break them off of cows, but as said by my long time friend above ybm his line of dogs have a passion to except both rolls as hog dogs or cow dogs or both but we choose to break them off of cows, I have also seen this line of dogs not look twice at a cow and be eaten up with baying hogs, as alot of you no my line of dogs came from Myles ( yellow black mask ) and I am a strong believer in his line because it has been and does prove its self.
All I am saying is that waylon in my books is right with the right line of dog you can do all.

And to reuben I don't no how much cow hunting you have done but around here we have guys that get payed good money to go find wild or stray cows and trust me thay have grate dogs that go along way through some rough stuff and the dogs do not quit because the going gets tough. And thay also go into thick brush and brier patches even ponds (or tanks to some people ) and trust me a long horn cow that has turned wild and is 900 lbs and ain't seen anyone in a year or ever can be very deadly.

And to ybm I would cull before I sold one knowing it was not gonna be a dog and if I couldn't get one broken off cows yes would let it go for a cow dog. But I cull if there on my yard and don't work a hog im not in the cow dog businesses.

First I will say that I do not know much about cow dogs but have heard alot about the cow dogs you are talking about. Where I am from we do not need the kind of dogs you are talking about. I am sure we have places around here that need that kind of cow dog but I would venture to say it would not be very often. The majority of cow dogs around here are to gather up cows in a open pasture and then herd and guide them to a corral. But for sure I am no expert on on cow dog work but have made some observations and assumptions(Key Word ). I do know there are some big ranches in west, south, and Central Texas and even east Texas where I can see needing the type of cow dog you are talking about. There is no doubt in my mind that that type of cow dog would make a hog dog...

And for Waylon, I commend you in that you are trying to breed the ultimate BMC. Yes you are right in that you have to be hard nosed about culling and you must have a clear goal as to what you will breed and select for. Otherwise, you would be pi!!ing in the dark.

Starting out with the best possible dogs is very important as well as selecting correctly from the pups.

The bottom line is that yes you can breed a dog that is all around but I would breed for hogs first and cows second or vise versa. It just depends on if I were primarily working cows or just hog hunting.


I do know that Randy Wright breeds for the all around dog. If everyone who buys his line of dogs followed his methods then the majority of those Ben dogs would be top all around dogs. The problem is that when someone gets a pup that is a cull they breed it because it is a ben bred dog and they will get there money back and then some, thus, there goes the line of dogs that Randy has culled hard for.

[t.wilbanks]

I do know that Randy Wright breeds for the all around dog. If everyone who buys his line of dogs followed his methods then the majority of those Ben dogs would be top all around dogs. The problem is that when someone gets a pup that is a cull they breed it because it is a ben bred dog and they will get there money back and then some, thus, there goes the line of dogs that Randy has culled hard for.

One of my hunting buddies dad raises quite a few PBR bulls, and he just traded Randy a few bulls for quite a few dogs....
Included in this deal was a "STUD" dog, a "BROOD" bitch

According to him, the Stud and the Brood have had no type of hunting experience... So why are they being used for breeding?
They may be out of proven lines, but neither have proved themselves...

If hes breeding dogs with no experience, exactly how "proven" is his line??