Hogdog culls or Cowdog gold

[got2catchem]

not wanting trouble just asking,mike if someone gets off topic or get mean or rude do u erase there post or kick them off the board and how many people can do this.

If people can't post respectfully, they get kicked off the board. Some people like to push it right to the edge without going over... too much of that is not tolerated either.

It's real simple and easy to get along on here, some folks just don't get it.

Mike, This should about sum it up... I had to clean it up a bit though..

[t.wilbanks]

This thread has been a very entertaining way to spend a rainy, yes I said rainy, saturday morning! I sure could have used some of the cowdogs like silverton described a couple days ago. I have never had the privilege of working with good cow dogs. I have worked with some guys who had dogs that bayed cows, but not with any that were the type described here. Quality dogs fascinate me. One day I would like to join a gather where these kind of dogs are used. This is very informative, I'm all ears!

Levi, have you ever tried to see what Red would do on cows? Maybe you could make him work both ways..  

Well I'm not priveleged enough to have 16,000 acres so I commend you on that, guess that gives you the oppurtunity to have an "all around" dog.

Josh, there's a big difference between a trashy dog and a all around dog....  

My family sold out most of our cows a few years ago, so we have no need for cowdogs and my grandpa usually just kept a few collies and heelers around..
I sold a young bmc a while back that i had started on hogs and wasnt doing too bad... he was out of cowdog stock, and the guy that has him now is using him on cows and is doing pretty good at it from what i hear...

I highly doubt he is on the level that Silverton described as a cowdog, but he could be used either way and get the job done....
I think if they dont make it at one task, they should atleast get the chance to be used at another ... then if they still dont make the grade, cull....

[djhogdogger]

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread but I would like to say that two of our best hog dogs were given to us by an old cowboy who was fixing to cull them as cowdogs because they were too rough on the cattle. He told me that a dog that was bred for cattle but was on the rough side would make a good hog dog, and danged if he wasn't right.  I wouldn't trade those two for anything. These two were still young when we got them but he said that he could already tell that they were going to be too rough. THey are our Red and Sweetpea, full brother and sister.

[J.Prince]

Come on guys let it go this is nothing to get banned over. This is a good thread let it be. Take the nonsense elsewhere.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[Mike]

Come on guys let it go this is nothing to get banned over. This is a good thread let it be. Take the nonsense elsewhere.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Good advice... unfortunately someone didn't take it.

I just deleted a page worth of $hit that didn't have anything to do with this topic.

[treeingratterrier]

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread but I would like to say that two of our best hog dogs were given to us by an old cowboy who was fixing to cull them as cowdogs because they were too rough on the cattle. He told me that a dog that was bred for cattle but was on the rough side would make a good hog dog, and danged if he wasn't right.  I wouldn't trade those two for anything. These two were still young when we got them but he said that he could already tell that they were going to be too rough. THey are our Red and Sweetpea, full brother and sister.

 

Just curious what does too ruff really mean???   When i was selling started dogs and somebody came back and said the dog is too ruff, it usually meant the guy with started dog did not have them under control on voice comand, in the old days i have seen peeps takes 22 rat shot and shoot dogs that had to much bite on them and were locking up on ears or noses and too agressive or hanging on tails, seems like a single bull in a cleaned up pasture of cows was always a lot of trobule for some who could not read there dogs enuff to get them to entice the bull to chase them to the pens or drive him out from a oak tree mott, its a fine line and many never get it  I used to wonder if they would have had a Tritronics collar with  a buzz before shock option they could have got the dog to understand what was wanted, pressure to move the cow, or make a errant cow stay in the herd or put a bite on one to make it try to escape from a thicket  I would take the dog back anyways and never argued, i fugured if they could not get the dog under voice comand they prob burn it up with the tritronics collar in ignorance or anger  I still remember hands quirting and scolding curs that were making cattle bleed during the screwworm times, if a dog bit a cow it was instant next day doctoring and biting was very frowned on, you never hardly ever see all of the roping and draging wild cattle or letting dog chew up a animal, it cost to much, people took longer to let the dogs stir the animal and sat on a horse for hours letting them get bayed up and settle into a herd  So many want to turn dogs loose, go to the cow or cowherd and immegaitely start driving them, if they dont drive 1th thing comes next is the rope or running the cows from behind and about to run over the cowdogs,  I am glad they worked for you, was wondering as well if the 2 dogs you got catch or just bay tight or wll not touch a hog or will catch if another dog catches or what  did you ever get to see the cowboy that gave yall the dogs who said they were too ruff???   Were these dogs of yalls hard to handle or hard headed when you started using them??

[sfboarbuster]

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread but I would like to say that two of our best hog dogs were given to us by an old cowboy who was fixing to cull them as cowdogs because they were too rough on the cattle. He told me that a dog that was bred for cattle but was on the rough side would make a good hog dog, and danged if he wasn't right.  I wouldn't trade those two for anything. These two were still young when we got them but he said that he could already tell that they were going to be too rough. THey are our Red and Sweetpea, full brother and sister.

That is how most of the dogs we use in florida come about.

[djhogdogger]

I havent read all 5 pages of this thread but I would like to say that two of our best hog dogs were given to us by an old cowboy who was fixing to cull them as cowdogs because they were too rough on the cattle. He told me that a dog that was bred for cattle but was on the rough side would make a good hog dog, and danged if he wasn't right.   I wouldn't trade those two for anything. These two were still young when we got them but he said that he could already tell that they were going to be too rough. THey are our Red and Sweetpea, full brother and sister.

 

Just curious what does too ruff really mean???   When i was selling started dogs and somebody came back and said the dog is too ruff, it usually meant the guy with started dog did not have them under control on voice comand, in the old days i have seen peeps takes 22 rat shot and shoot dogs that had to much bite on them and were locking up on ears or noses and too agressive or hanging on tails, seems like a single bull in a cleaned up pasture of cows was always a lot of trobule for some who could not read there dogs enuff to get them to entice the bull to chase them to the pens or drive him out from a oak tree mott, its a fine line and many never get it  I used to wonder if they would have had a Tritronics collar with  a buzz before shock option they could have got the dog to understand what was wanted, pressure to move the cow, or make a errant cow stay in the herd or put a bite on one to make it try to escape from a thicket  I would take the dog back anyways and never argued, i fugured if they could not get the dog under voice comand they prob burn it up with the tritronics collar in ignorance or anger  I still remember hands quirting and scolding curs that were making cattle bleed during the screwworm times, if a dog bit a cow it was instant next day doctoring and biting was very frowned on, you never hardly ever see all of the roping and draging wild cattle or letting dog chew up a animal, it cost to much, people took longer to let the dogs stir the animal and sat on a horse for hours letting them get bayed up and settle into a herd  So many want to turn dogs loose, go to the cow or cowherd and immegaitely start driving them, if they dont drive 1th thing comes next is the rope or running the cows from behind and about to run over the cowdogs,  I am glad they worked for you, was wondering as well if the 2 dogs you got catch or just bay tight or wll not touch a hog or will catch if another dog catches or what  did you ever get to see the cowboy that gave yall the dogs who said they were too ruff???   Were these dogs of yalls hard to handle or hard headed when you started using them??

I guess "too rough" varies from person to person. But the guy who gave the dogs to us, doesn't tollerate his cow dogs to put teeth on a cow. He likes to take them slow and easy to the pens without upsetting them.

Also, the dogs that we got were very timid at first and they surely will put teeth on a hog. Before Red got his two top cannines jerked out by hogs, he would catch anything under about 70lbs.,now he just tries, if we hear him baying, we know its a big one. LOL

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

There are two types of rough cow dog.

Type #1 is a dog that will bite a cow in the herd. This is a straight cull in my oppinion. These dogs will not respect a settled bay and will break the cow bay every time or at least split the bay. This type of dog will do the same on hogs and will not let them stand without trying to catch. This type of dog will often bite and release picking a fight with a cow or hog instead of working it into a good solid bay.

The second type is a dog that will not bite in the bunch or a cow that is staying bayed up but will hang off an ear or nose on any cattle that break bay and run. This is what they are bred to do. Some are just rougher than others. The type of cattle being gathered dictate how rough your dogs need to be on a runner. A man gathering tame cattle that might be dog broke wants a dog that hits a cow but doesn't hang. Gathering maverick or spoiled cattle takes a rougher dog that likes to hang on the runners. These type of dogs will do some damage to the cattle but that is what it takes to hold up wild cattle. Most of this type of cattle come out of the pasture on the end of a rope and are going straight to the sale barn so what ever it takes roughness wise from the dogs is OK, just get the job done. These dogs often stay caught untill the cow is roped and tied down. These dogs make great hog dogs for me and they will catch any hog that wants to run.

So when you are looking for rough cow dog to try on hogs you would want dogs from the second type because they will bay a hog well but will run to catch a runner. To this type of dog, that has been catching 1000lbs cows on a regular basis, catching and holding big hogs is not a big deal at all.

I am not saying that is gospel but I have caught 1,000's of cattle with dogs and used those same dogs on hogs and that is just my experience.

[jdt]

There are two types of rough cow dog.

Type #1 is a dog that will bite a cow in the herd. This is a straight cull in my oppinion. These dogs will not respect a settled bay and will break the cow bay every time or at least split the bay. This type of dog will do the same on hogs and will not let them stand without trying to catch. This type of dog will often bite and release picking a fight with a cow or hog instead of working it into a good solid bay.

The second type is a dog that will not bite in the bunch or a cow that is staying bayed up but will hang off an ear or nose on any cattle that break bay and run. This is what they are bred to do. Some are just rougher than others. The type of cattle being gathered dictate how rough your dogs need to be on a runner. A man gathering tame cattle that might be dog broke wants a dog that hits a cow but doesn't hang. Gathering maverick or spoiled cattle takes a rougher dog that likes to hang on the runners. These type of dogs will do some damage to the cattle but that is what it takes to hold up wild cattle. Most of this type of cattle come out of the pasture on the end of a rope and are going straight to the sale barn so what ever it takes roughness wise from the dogs is OK, just get the job done. These dogs often stay caught untill the cow is roped and tied down. These dogs make great hog dogs for me and they will catch any hog that wants to run.

So when you are looking for rough cow dog to try on hogs you would want dogs from the second type because they will bay a hog well but will run to catch a runner. To this type of dog, that has been catching 1000lbs cows on a regular basis, catching and holding big hogs is not a big deal at all.

I am not saying that is gospel but I have caught 1,000's of cattle with dogs and used those same dogs on hogs and that is just my experience.


i agree 1000 %   could it be that cowdog culls make the best hog dogs ? ... instead of the other way around ? good thread

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

The concensus of the majority so far has actually been the exact reverse of what I originally believed.

It seems most hog doggers are somewhat receptive to taking and trying failed cowdogs. 

The cowmen seem to be standing firm about a no go on attempting to try a failed hogdog.

Interesting stuff guys.

[warrent423]

There are two types of rough cow dog.

Type #1 is a dog that will bite a cow in the herd. This is a straight cull in my oppinion. These dogs will not respect a settled bay and will break the cow bay every time or at least split the bay. This type of dog will do the same on hogs and will not let them stand without trying to catch. This type of dog will often bite and release picking a fight with a cow or hog instead of working it into a good solid bay.

The second type is a dog that will not bite in the bunch or a cow that is staying bayed up but will hang off an ear or nose on any cattle that break bay and run. This is what they are bred to do. Some are just rougher than others. The type of cattle being gathered dictate how rough your dogs need to be on a runner. A man gathering tame cattle that might be dog broke wants a dog that hits a cow but doesn't hang. Gathering maverick or spoiled cattle takes a rougher dog that likes to hang on the runners. These type of dogs will do some damage to the cattle but that is what it takes to hold up wild cattle. Most of this type of cattle come out of the pasture on the end of a rope and are going straight to the sale barn so what ever it takes roughness wise from the dogs is OK, just get the job done. These dogs often stay caught untill the cow is roped and tied down. These dogs make great hog dogs for me and they will catch any hog that wants to run.

So when you are looking for rough cow dog to try on hogs you would want dogs from the second type because they will bay a hog well but will run to catch a runner. To this type of dog, that has been catching 1000lbs cows on a regular basis, catching and holding big hogs is not a big deal at all.

I am not saying that is gospel but I have caught 1,000's of cattle with dogs and used those same dogs on hogs and that is just my experience.

Can't break it down any better than that. Good post

[Reuben]

I made my mind up in the mid 80's about certain breed of dogs and the breeds I am talking about were cow dogs. I tried them on hogs and a high percentage did not have the hunt or nose. I hunted with some dogs that had some hound in them and I saw some real hog dogs with these crosses.

I also saw where the old time mtn curs were hard to beat because they were hard hunting dogs and they were bred for hunting, all they needed was to be shown what was to be hunted.

I have heard about some good combination cow/hog dogs and these that I have heard about are raised from hardcore men who make a living working and catching cows. And these men are dogmen so if I wanted a cow dog for a hog dog I would most definitely buy a few pups from these type of dogs. Most people who raise these type of dogs guard their bloodline and usually do not sell or give away their pups. I am pretty sure these are the type of dogs Silverton is talking about...

I also know that there are some good cow dog stock out there that has been converted to a hog hunting strain of dogs like YellowBlackMask's line of yeller dogs. But more than likely his line of dogs come from the all around cur dog that worked livestock and hunted for the ranch folks. Just good all around ranch dogs of the past...

I also knew of some good jude hart bred all around cow/hog dogs but I went to his yard a few years after he passed away and his son tried to sell me some dogs that did not look like Jude Hart dogs.

HOG DOG CULLS OR COW DOG GOLD???

If I cull a dog it will not go for hunting or even working cattle because a cull is a cull. Might not always be true but the percentages are always against the dog once he is culled.

According to what Silverton describes as a good cow dog then I know for a fact it wouldn't work and a hog dog can not be made from a culled cow dog because both descriptions are so similar.

I do know some folks sometimes going thru the trouble of converting a squirrel dog to coon dog or to hunt something else because the dog does not like this game or that game. A good hunting dog should hunt what you want it to hunt or it is a cull.

One exception I can think of right now is if the hunting tree dog hunts real good but does not hold a tree...+ this dog can sometimes make a hog dog.

The only place for a cull is  for a pet/companion or just a good ole ranch dog.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Reuben,

One thing that we have not talked about in this discussion is speed. Raw speed and track speed. For me a cow dog/hog dog has got to have outstanding raw/track speed. A cow dog has got to be able to get to the head of 700lb brangus heifers (one of the fastest critters I need to catch). Same on a running hog, the dog has got to have the speed to get to the head and "force" the cow/hog to hold up and bay.

A dog with not quite enough speed will end up falling in behind the cow/hog and push it rather than stopping it. I don't want the hog or cow to pick the place to bay up. I need my dogs to force the issue and make the hog I am proud of my dogs when they stop a hog that has broken bay and run and have it backed up on a small tree or fence post. When they bay up in a thicket or in water the hog has chosen that spot not the dogs forcing the issue. Speed is the problem most of the time when this happens. Now dogs get hot and thick brush interferes but on the average the dog needs the speed to get to the head.

If the runner does not check up and give the dogs the chance to get a solid bay, the dogs should start trying to catch. The dog has got to have the speed to wing out beside and ahead barking and positioning to jump to hit the ear nose or jaw. When the hits the head the cow/hog throws the head up and flails both front legs. This will impede forward motion and give the dogs a chance to hold up the cow/hog. If the cow/hog does not want to stop and keeps running it will have been slowed enough by this initial hit for all dogs in the pack to get a chance to get a hold. My dogs will hang on a cow like this from both ears and both jaws. Four dogs hanging on that head will pull it down and force the cow to stop and fight instead of running.

This is when the cow has a choice. It can stand and fight and get caught or run like the dickens for the safety of the heard. The dogs I prefer for hog dogs are this type of cow dog. If a pig breaks they have the speed to get in position and if the hog will not stop they will get the the head and catch. I don't have any long races with these dogs. If I hear a bay break I send the Dogo from any distance because I know we are fixing to have a caught hog right quick and I want a big dog to get there quick and catch solid.

They have got to have the speed to get to the head quickly or nothing else really matters.

[Reuben]

Reuben,

One thing that we have not talked about in this discussion is speed. Raw speed and track speed. For me a cow dog/hog dog has got to have outstanding raw/track speed. A cow dog has got to be able to get to the head of 700lb brangus heifers (one of the fastest critters I need to catch). Same on a running hog, the dog has got to have the speed to get to the head and "force" the cow/hog to hold up and bay.

A dog with not quite enough speed will end up falling in behind the cow/hog and push it rather than stopping it. I don't want the hog or cow to pick the place to bay up. I need my dogs to force the issue and make the hog I am proud of my dogs when they stop a hog that has broken bay and run and have it backed up on a small tree or fence post. When they bay up in a thicket or in water the hog has chosen that spot not the dogs forcing the issue. Speed is the problem most of the time when this happens. Now dogs get hot and thick brush interferes but on the average the dog needs the speed to get to the head.

If the runner does not check up and give the dogs the chance to get a solid bay, the dogs should start trying to catch. The dog has got to have the speed to wing out beside and ahead barking and positioning to jump to hit the ear nose or jaw. When the hits the head the cow/hog throws the head up and flails both front legs. This will impede forward motion and give the dogs a chance to hold up the cow/hog. If the cow/hog does not want to stop and keeps running it will have been slowed enough by this initial hit for all dogs in the pack to get a chance to get a hold. My dogs will hang on a cow like this from both ears and both jaws. Four dogs hanging on that head will pull it down and force the cow to stop and fight instead of running.

This is when the cow has a choice. It can stand and fight and get caught or run like the dickens for the safety of the heard. The dogs I prefer for hog dogs are this type of cow dog. If a pig breaks they have the speed to get in position and if the hog will not stop they will get the the head and catch. I don't have any long races with these dogs. If I hear a bay break I send the Dogo from any distance because I know we are fixing to have a caught hog right quick and I want a big dog to get there quick and catch solid.

They have got to have the speed to get to the head quickly or nothing else really matters.

I Agree...but we do have some good hog dogs that grab a mouthful of nuts or ham and sit back like a good roping horse and then move around to the front end.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

I Agree...but we do have some good hog dogs that grab a mouthful of nuts or ham and sit back like a good roping horse and then move around to the front end.

I would agree, but those dogs have got to have the speed as well. I have wondered if some of the problem with stopping running hogs comes from a lack of raw speed. How many hog dog breeders are selecting for speed as a necessity in breeding. I don't know the answer to that question, may be some others could answer that.

I am lucky that I work a lot of open country where I can see a set of dogs break with a cow or a hog and really see how much difference there is is raw speed in a set of good dogs. The fastest are the ones I like to breed all other things being equal. To me speed is the difference between a good dog and a great dog.

[Mike]

Speed is good when it can be utilized. A lot of us hunt in country where a dog can't use it's speed to full potential, can't get ahead of a hog and sure can't get close enough to latch onto one.

This where long races and lot's of bottom come into play.

[jdt]

Reuben,

One thing that we have not talked about in this discussion is speed. Raw speed and track speed. For me a cow dog/hog dog has got to have outstanding raw/track speed. A cow dog has got to be able to get to the head of 700lb brangus heifers (one of the fastest critters I need to catch). Same on a running hog, the dog has got to have the speed to get to the head and "force" the cow/hog to hold up and bay.

A dog with not quite enough speed will end up falling in behind the cow/hog and push it rather than stopping it. I don't want the hog or cow to pick the place to bay up. I need my dogs to force the issue and make the hog I am proud of my dogs when they stop a hog that has broken bay and run and have it backed up on a small tree or fence post. When they bay up in a thicket or in water the hog has chosen that spot not the dogs forcing the issue. Speed is the problem most of the time when this happens. Now dogs get hot and thick brush interferes but on the average the dog needs the speed to get to the head.

If the runner does not check up and give the dogs the chance to get a solid bay, the dogs should start trying to catch. The dog has got to have the speed to wing out beside and ahead barking and positioning to jump to hit the ear nose or jaw. When the hits the head the cow/hog throws the head up and flails both front legs. This will impede forward motion and give the dogs a chance to hold up the cow/hog. If the cow/hog does not want to stop and keeps running it will have been slowed enough by this initial hit for all dogs in the pack to get a chance to get a hold. My dogs will hang on a cow like this from both ears and both jaws. Four dogs hanging on that head will pull it down and force the cow to stop and fight instead of running.

This is when the cow has a choice. It can stand and fight and get caught or run like the dickens for the safety of the heard. The dogs I prefer for hog dogs are this type of cow dog. If a pig breaks they have the speed to get in position and if the hog will not stop they will get the the head and catch. I don't have any long races with these dogs. If I hear a bay break I send the Dogo from any distance because I know we are fixing to have a caught hog right quick and I want a big dog to get there quick and catch solid.

They have got to have the speed to get to the head quickly or nothing else really matters.

I Agree...but we do have some good hog dogs that grab a mouthful of nuts or ham and sit back like a good roping horse and then move around to the front end.

that is all true . i had a dog out of hog dog stock that would stop a hog from the backend , theis kept him from getting cut . the problem was , he tried to stop a single cow the same way . which means i had to catch up and rope the cow , no big deal as thats what always happens on a single ... but if he went to the head on that single cow i coulda caught her closer to the road .

   is it just my thinking or is it best to stop a hog from the back and spin him to keep him from running through the dogs , or keep going to the head and trying to bend him into a bay like a set of cattle -and then catch. i'm strictly talking about a single hog with cutters here

[Reuben]

jdt,

I don't believe that a good cow dog should catch from the back end.

Some hog dogs catch the back end because like Mike says. the underbrush is bad and it is ok to catch the back end on a hog and then move to the front end. Head dogs are good but if the dog is only looking to grab the front end he might not get the oppurtunity because of the palmettos, brush, and other obstacles. Fast on track, lots of speed but a lot of stick is needed in the thick woods. One very important trait needed in a hog dog is the ability to stick with the hog even in the thickest thickets. Quite a few dogs do not have this.

[circleP]

I use bmc almost everyday on cows and also have a set that i hog hunt with.I try all puppies and see which way they work better and how rangy they are.I dont need a cow dog to get gone as soon as i turn him loose.My dogs wear shock collars and do mind but when i send them to the cows i dont need them leaving the country.I dont mind my cow dogs baying a hog when I am working cows but my hog dogs are all broke off cows.Me personally i like versatile dogs i get some of my best cow dogs from my buddies culls.