Hogdog culls or Cowdog gold

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

The pole is starting to turn around.

[J Carroll]

I grew up around sheep and cattle dogs pretty much my whole life because my dad trained them for people, worked them as a hobby , and just used them on gathering and moving our own cattle or sheep. He always kept and trained border collies, hanging tree cow dogs , or a kelpy. I never even heard of anybody using bmc on cattle till I started hog hunting with dogs about 4 or 5 months ago. It seems that it comes natural for these dogs to bay not herd and drive. But like I said I was never around any. Do any of you actually have bmc that will drive and herd cattle and lot them by working off your commands just like a collie would do? I'm just cuious. I just thought it was odd that all these years I never even heard him or any of the guys he worked dogs with even mention a cur.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

" I just thought it was odd that all these years I never even heard him or any of the guys he worked dogs with even mention a cur "


Funny I'm just the opposite   I didn't know there was such thing as a collie type dog except on sheep farms and feed lots,I've never seen a collie or kelpie wind and hunt brushed up cattle or bunch rough rank wild run away's . In my country cattle are worked with head dogs only and the old timers say collie dogs are not tough enough for rank cattle, unless there already penned or wore down............ Just saying

[jdt]

rueben , yes , any curdog that goes to the backend on cattle is a cull . but when you live in west tn and catch cattle as part of your livin you have to work with what you got at the time . and i agree on the rest of your last post , sometimes that is the only way to stop a hog .
   my question is would a dog always be better of to stop the hog from the rear ? does it depend on the hog ? i have a couple pretty catchy dogs on hogs ...but they dont usually get aholt of his face ( as far as i know , thats kinda what i'm wondering  ) until he,s stopped , bayed and ready to be caught or me or the bulldog get there .


      j caroll i  used hangin tree dogs for several years gathering and catching cattle . they have some cur in them too . with cur dogs you let them find an bay the cattle , then when settled good you ease up and drive the herd and more or les let the dogs hold the front and sides .  with bc / htc type dogs you ride up front and let the dogs bring the cattle and keep them behind you .

  which way is best ? ... depends on th cattle and the country - and mostyl the particular dogs .

[J Carroll]

We have had some collies and hanging tree dogs that were not rough enough on cattle and some that would flat out bring some blood if an ol cow wanted to be hard to deal with. Your right about the hunting and winding part though. Never had one hunt one down for us. There are cattle bred collies that are probably rougher than you think though. Still curious if people just use them to keep them at bay or to get them out of the brush or if they can actually use them to drive a herd across 400 acres and lot them?

[J Carroll]

Jdt you answered me while I was writing that. Lol thanks. I was just wondering how people used the curs on cattle.

[jdt]

yeah , everbodys typin at the same time i guess lol .   waylon you have to go through several herding type dogs to get one tough enough for rank cattle , and the best htc i ever had would turn a buffalo - but wouldnt hunt but maybe 100 yds around you .

 i gave up on them when i lost my good hangin tree dog and coulnt afford to replace him at the new designer prices. because of those 3 reasons . too high , not stout enough and not enough hunt , i'm a strait ybm man now .

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

, i'm a strait ybm man now .

Well JDT

You just won yourself a free chicken sawich and a large milk shake for that comment. Lets go ahead and bump you on up to my fav five.  

[jdt]

hahaha , at the same time i was using them htc s i was working with a guy that had some ben jordan bmc s , we allways ribbed each other about who's was best .  sometimes i still wish i had some good htc s , most of the time the yeller dogs get it done better , especially on hogs . and they never call you to catch cattle until they've done everything they can to make them complete idiots !

[TColt]

Speed is good when it can be utilized. A lot of us hunt in country where a dog can't use it's speed to full potential, can't get ahead of a hog and sure can't get close enough to latch onto one.

This where long races and lot's of bottom come into play.

Mike, I hunt the same area (somewhat) as you and I agree. I have had the privilege to hunt up in the pan handle with Paul a little bit, and its no lie that his dogs got some speed and will go to the head and put the stop to a hog in a hurry. I have also been hunting my normal places in east texas this summer where its like a jungle. It seems to me in the winter, the races are not near as long. Really the hogs dont hardly get to break more than 50 yrds or so, but these same places in the summer the chase might be a mile. I think this might be because during the winter its open enough for dogs to move to the head and in the summer its not.

There was a hunt a couple weeks ago where me and a buddy were in a spot that the brush was beat down by cattle real good. The bay broke and the hog came out of the thick stuff right at us. It was really interesting to watch the dogs go from a tight bunch behind the hog, coming out of the brush, to more open circling towards the head. They hit the head and had her stopped ten yards past us.


Wondering if you ever notice the same sort of thing going on with your dogs?

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

My experience has been if they are runners it doesn't matter to them if it's hot, cold, thick, or open. They are gonna take you on a hike unless you shut em down immediately or have the bottom to close em. They run on us just as bad in winter as they do in summer. Gonna start doin like the old timers. When you, mark hogs cut a back leg tendon to three leg him. That way you are not having to drive to other counties to pick dogs up.

[Mike]

TColt, they run the same year round. All the yaupon, briars, vines and palmettoes are there all year. The only advantage in the colder months is that the dogs last a lot longer. After a hard race that goes for several miles in this high heat and humidity... they're done.

I agree 100% on speed. My dogs are fast and will smoke a track, I wouldn't have it any other way. I hunt a bunch of cattle country also, just west of the Piney Woods region. In the winter time when all the weeds have died off, these places are a pure pleasure to hunt. It's like going from hell to heaven. This where your dogs can truly utilize their speed 100%.

[TColt]

YBM- Im not saying they dont try to run as much, the dogs just shut them down alot easier in the winter time. They pretty much always get shut down. But we end up on more mile runs in the summer, and more like 50 yrd runs in the winter. I also send my cd's almost right away weather it be 50 yrds or 500. So we dont have any break if her gets their before they make a run for it. But if they do break before, they stop them alot quicker in the winter than the summer.

Mike- Im a few hours north of you, I get down in the Huntsville area every now and then, but mostly Kaufman and VanZandt counties... we dont have palmettoes. We got the briars and all that, but almost everything we hunt has cattle run on it so it helps alot. Still dont do much in the summer when the under brush comes out though lol.

One thing I think thats funny is that when we hunt in the summer on ET places, my little 25# lacy dog is always the one out front keeping up with the hog. Durring the winter its a toss up as to who is leading, and like I said, they dont break far in the winter very often . But when they are on a dead run in the summer, she will be 100+ yrds ahead of other dogs. She is fast, but my guess is her size she is able to get through the tight spots and thick stuff easier.

[treeingratterrier]

I use bmc almost everyday on cows and also have a set that i hog hunt with.I try all puppies and see which way they work better and how rangy they are.I dont need a cow dog to get gone as soon as i turn him loose.My dogs wear shock collars and do mind but when i send them to the cows i dont need them leaving the country.I dont mind my cow dogs baying a hog when I am working cows but my hog dogs are all broke off cows.Me personally i like versatile dogs i get some of my best cow dogs from my buddies culls.

Bet you are the guy they call last when they have boogered all the cows and pissed off the landowner, but you are used to that because you know what it takes, you are a rare breed for sure and prob work all of the time as word gets around who has dogs that work right and those who just waste time, another mans cull is your gold

[SLacowboy]

I was reading back and found this thread. Was sorry I had missed it. Found it very interesting and always like seeing everyone's opinion.  I have cattle bred border collies and I don't own any curs yet, but have had the fever lately. I'm not here to state my opinion that one breed is better than another. I do believe that dogs are bred for certain jobs and fit some people better than others. I respect all the men that are breeding strictly for what they want in a working dog and not for $$$$. I agree that there are border collies that will straight up whip a cow and get down and dirty, but are a lot more that won't. I think that goes back to money. Man pays 500 for a pup feeds it for a year and it turns out a so so dog he will get by with him instead of culling him. Then since he is ok they breed him to another ok dog and so on. People start selling dogs for crazy money because of a name on the papers. I respect these men that raise litters for themselves culling anything that doesnt make the cut and only giving dogs to people they know. I don't think there are many doing this in the collie business.  That is one reason I find cur dogs interesting. I enjoy this forum very much and have learn lots on breeding and culling. I belong to some other cowdog forums and cull is a word very seldom discussed. I purchased the loydd perry book because of the post on this site and read it in 3 nights. Only question I have is how is a man suppose to get his hands on a few good bred pups without knowing any good dog men? I def understand a man not wanting to let his blood out to someone he doesn't know anything about. How did some of you get started?

[waylon-N.E. OK]

SLacowboy- Here is what I'd suggest to you about finding good cur dogs to get into,

Don't run right out and buy a cur dog until you have been around a few different styles and breeds, once you know for sure what you want in a dog 100%, find the guys who have that line/style/type of them and buddy up with them and hunt with them when you can, once they can tell your serious and know how to handle the dogs and will hunt/work them hard they will maybe allow you to get some of there blood, maybe for free 

Just my opinion anyway

[sdrummond]

I run cattle and hunt hogs but I take my kids coon today I bayed a bad bull two days ago I treed coin Waylon was with me I also hunt hogs with the same dogs. Good genetics are good genetics. Now I only work cattle in day light I only hunt hogs at night. I only hunt coin with kids my dogs know what I want by what I do. You can't. Beat good genetics but I cull hard my kids know dad gets rid of average dogs.but you can't replace time with dogs. Wet blankets make good horses and sour paws make a dog

[sdrummond]

Something else you need to know is how to turn on genetics. When I start a litter at 10 weeks I introduce my pups to all I am going to do with them. Then I let them run free around the house until they get in trouble. Then I let each run a little until they are ready to train. I then put them on a chain with little contact to get their head strait. When I take a new pup with an old dog I only take one at a time.I then go and find my old Mexico bull meanest fighting bull on earth. I then put the old dog to work. And drop the pup usually 9months old and wait. When  Mexico starts to fight the pup will do one of two things. He will ether turn on like a light switch or not. We breed dogs to be predators. And work in a pack we being the Alfa male if a dog. If the pup does not turn on he is a cull. If he does he goes into training.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Lil off topic but we can come right back. What is the average population % for Yeller dogs in the northern parts of OK, minus the Ben dogs? Curious because there seems to be pockets around certain area's that hold higher or lower percentages. East Texas is thicker than flies but was just wondering where the other Yeller hot spots that were not primarily made up of foundation dogs?

[SCHitemHard]

i rem the place we got our pups from a long time ago, we went to northern alabama for ours and it was like every farm on that stretch of highway had BMC pups for sale