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T-Bob Parker
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« on: November 27, 2011, 07:11:31 pm » |
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In another thread about razorback hogs, Rueben spelled out an excellent theory which I believe to be true. In a few words; hogs have evolved because of our methods of taking them and the ones who have survived and passed on their seed RUN. agree or disagree with the term evolution, but it is what it is. Knowing this, thru the process of breeding what any given man has that actually produces pork to another dog who likewise is a producer, do you feel that on the whole the hog dogs of today are better faster smarter and more capable dogs than a random sampling of the hog dog of yesteryear.
Have we collectively made better hog dogs?
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Windows Down, Waylon Up.
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Bino9905
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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 07:33:11 pm » |
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not to steal this post, but some guys at work had a heated argument the other day on a similar project.
One guy said that rattle snakes are not rattling as much as they used to in the past.
Another guys called BS and said that other guys was stupid.
They asked what I thought, I said it is hard to believe, but that the only scientific theory to why a rattle snake would not rattle is because we have been killing all the one that rattle off, so the ones that are surviving and spreading their genes are the ones that do not rattlle as much or at all.
Back to your post, I agree with Ruebens theory, but I would not agree that todays dogs are any better than hog dogs from the past.
Todays hogs might be runners, but if you go by what all TV shows are saying, there should be way more hogs around (runners or not) for the dogs to find.
I also believe hog dog breeds vary so much and there are different styles that it is nearly impossible to say that "we" have been consisten enough through all breeds and breedings to say that hog dos now have better noses, longer legs or better heat tolerance than those of teh past. JMO
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PEEWEE
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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 07:45:31 pm » |
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Well as a whole todays dogs suck not to say there aren't good dogs out there I've seen them but to many people don't cull like the old timers did they bred the best to the best no mater the breed unless they were particular about a breed now today alot of hunters /dog owners don't do that they'll breed a good dog or bitch to a unproven or medeoker dog to try and make good pups most of the time it don't work jmo
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treeingratterrier
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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 07:58:38 pm » |
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Hog dogs have prob stayed the same, there were always top dogs and culls, there are just more of them now since now where there were 3 hog hunters in the county there are 30 and were there might have been 300 hogs in a county now there are 3000 running all over it from feild to oak mott to tanks, deer feeders, to root up coastal feilds, if they changed at all its prob for the worse, lots of dogs who people catch hogs with now would not be kept back 30 years ago, so many ride 4x4's too, then when it was rare to get a strike 1 out of 5 nights of roading or hooding from 10 to 6 in the morning, on the way in to the ranch i see 5 or 6 packs about every time on a 6 mile easement i been driving since the 60's, used to be rare to even see a hog track on it much less a live hog crossing. Back then if u had a dog that could trail some it was the only way you could catch hogs, sometimes they strike 1 mile away, now just make a loop around a pasture and its pretty easy to run into a hog or have a dog strike on close by, every pasture that joins us has deer feeders running year around as well and not fenced off so they got food to eat and dont have to roam miles and miles to eat and drink.
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brad s
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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 08:11:52 pm » |
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Another thing that plays a big role in todays dogs is technology. The old timers didn't have the luxury of garmins, quick tracks etc. I don't think the dogs are better but back then u just had to listen instead of looking on gps and going straight to em. And the hogs have adapted to everyone style of hunting. Jmo
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I go where the dogs go!
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YELLOWBLACKMASK
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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 08:14:16 pm » |
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to many people don't cull like the old timers did they bred the best to the best no mater the breed unless they were particular about a breed now today alot of hunters /dog owners don't do that they'll breed a good dog or bitch to a unproven or medeoker dog to try and make good pups most of the time it don't work jmo
Well said. (Heavy-Hammer boyz) |
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M Bennet
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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 08:34:07 pm » |
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my .2cents. yes hogs have gotten smarter, and maybe people dont cull there dogs enough. but to me a hunters dog is only going to be as good as hes owner trains him. take a pup and hunt him once a wk hes not going to be as good as his brother that gets hunted 4 times a wk. but to me its not woods time , its having the hogs to put a young dog on. every time a hunter goes out it would be great to put his young dogs on hogs every time. iv seen it over and over go out turn loose and cant strike a hog , but they end up chasing trash.because theres no pigs on the place . but having lots of hogs on a place is like winning the lottery. but iv gone out and new there probly werent any hogs on a place but i just wanted to hunt,and had my own young dogs mess up and had to wip em. but if i would have put them in hogs it wouldnt had happen like that i dont think. its like trainning a heading horse ,steer after steer tracking and tracking. i make no since lol.
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Monty Bennet
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treeingratterrier
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« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 09:21:51 pm » |
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Another thing that plays a big role in todays dogs is technology. The old timers didn't have the luxury of garmins, quick tracks etc. I don't think the dogs are better but back then u just had to listen instead of looking on gps and going straight to em. And the hogs have adapted to everyone style of hunting. Jmo
But if u had gps shouldnt the dogs be better due to more hogs caught total vs losing the dogs out of hearing and going home with no hogs where if they roll out you keep going and going to them until u tire out killing hogs or they do?? Hard to figure to me for sure. |
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brad s
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« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 09:34:56 pm » |
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Yes I think we do produce more hogs than years back bc of technology we have now and bc we have more hogs than we did years back also.
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I go where the dogs go!
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arrowbar
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« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 10:01:40 pm » |
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I think with all the technology for breeding and the ability to get semen shipped to dang near anywhere in the world we have been able to build better dogs, now the cull rate is always going to be one of those things that has a huge variation from person to person and breed to breed but we can all agree that its not as stringent as it should be. Before if we wanted to breed dog a to dog b we had to arrange for them to be put together, now UPS does that for us. Plus with other things mentioned before such as game cameras, tracking systems, radios and cell phones we have bred better dogs and by doing so we are pushing the limits in the prey as well.
As to the rattlers I have read those studies and presented them in class for an ecology class and it makes sense.
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djhogdogger
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« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2011, 10:18:36 pm » |
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I believe that the traits that people breed for today are different from traits that were bred for 50 years ago. Most old timers will tell you that a dog that would tear the hide on a hog would be culled. Now people are breeding dogs to be rough. One reason is because long ago, hogs were worked and released like common livestock and guys couldn't make a living on injured hogs. Now a lot of people kill the hog after it is caught so a small injury during the catch process wouldn't matter.
I also believe that dogs are being bred with more bottom. Now we have atv's and garming tracking systems. Its much different on foot and having to listen for the dogs. Which also brings me to the point of people are now breeding silent dogs instead of open dogs. Now before anyone says anything, I know that a lot of people still do hunt and prefer open dogs, and loose baying dogs and short range dogs. Im just saying that now there are a whole range of possibilities to breed for.
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A television can insult your intelligence but nothing rubs it in like a computer.
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Reuben
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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 07:40:43 am » |
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mother nature does not make mistakes when she culls...her rules never change. Humans as breeders have a wide range of views as to what a good hog dog is. What some call hog dogs others cull those same dogs. The only time to breed a cull is only one time from a top line of dogs and that dog should be related to the dog being bred. Then select the best pups from that cross. It is better to do it that way than to outcross a good dog from a strain to an unrelated good dog. I haven't hunted much anymore but I saw lots of dogs that could not find a hog and have seen a whole pack of dogs crossover a fresh hog track that did not interest them. I don't think that it has changed that much this fast... but lots of good information on here so there is no excuse as to why we can't breed better dogs. one hunter likes an open dog and another wants to cull the same dog. one hunter likes a short range dog that if the hog does not get bayed or caught in 3/4 mile to give it up and come back...the hunters that do this either are poachers are care to not tresspass.  Then the other type of hunter that culls a dog if he quits the hog...the hunting plots are getting smaller so this long range dog is in jeopardy of getting shot, ranned over, or stolen. I can see where dogs should get better because of the vast information out there for the folks who want to breed better dogs but then we have the variability in how we interpret this information or what we think a good hunting dog should be. We just need to be more in tune with mother nature about some things  |
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Training dogs is not about quantity, it's more about timing, the right situations, and proper guidance...After that it's up to the dog...
A hunting dog is born not made...
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T-Bob Parker
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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 07:24:57 pm » |
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I never did give my actual opinion on the subject. Just asked the question. I feel that as a whole todays dogs are much more specialized. I'll leave it at that and hopefully get the ball rolling again.
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TexasHogDogs
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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 08:34:23 pm » |
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This might hurt some feelings and if it does you might not want to bitch and complain in public you might want to keep quite take some advise and adjust !
Here goes.
I have always said that Mother Nature has the best and most extreme culling system and I try to copy her .
Only the best and strong survive !
Line breeding and some inbreeding is a good thing when used by someone that knows whats going on . Were it goes wrong is when humans start to look at the papers threw rose colored glasses and the papers look so pretty to them but then there is a great side effect to that and that is they become dog blind and what I mean by that is they love the papers more than they love the great dogs and they breed great papers and not great dogs and breed great papers instead of great dogs!
Great dogs being bred to great dogs is were its at ! If you got great dogs with great papers thats even better but when you become blinded by the rose colored glasses and the pretty pedigrees your screwed !
Mother Nature don't give a number 2 only the very best survive to breed again and again !
Thats what has happened to these hogs only the best are surviving the fastest the strongest boars and sows and only the best are surviving and breeding and they are becoming much much better athlete's and they are putting a whooping on a bunch of dogs !
So what happens now is you adapt and breed what you need cause a bunch of pretty papers ain't gonna catch these hogs , So you get your butt kicked chase hogs all nite are all day are you can adapt and breed what you need are you get out !
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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reatj81
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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 08:47:42 pm » |
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This might hurt some feelings and if it does you might not want to bitch and complain in public you might want to keep quite take some advise and adjust !
Here goes.
I have always said that Mother Nature has the best and most extreme culling system and I try to copy her .
Only the best and strong survive !
Line breeding and some inbreeding is a good thing when used by someone that knows whats going on . Were it goes wrong is when humans start to look at the papers threw rose colored glasses and the papers look so pretty to them but then there is a great side effect to that and that is they become dog blind and what I mean by that is they love the papers more than they love the great dogs and they breed great papers and not great dogs and breed great papers instead of great dogs!
Great dogs being bred to great dogs is were its at ! If you got great dogs with great papers thats even better but when you become blinded by the rose colored glasses and the pretty pedigrees your screwed !
Mother Nature don't give a number 2 only the very best survive to breed again and again !
Thats what has happened to these hogs only the best are surviving the fastest the strongest boars and sows and only the best are surviving and breeding and they are becoming much much better athlete's and they are putting a whooping on a bunch of dogs !
So what happens now is you adapt and breed what you need cause a bunch of pretty papers ain't gonna catch these hogs , So you get your butt kicked chase hogs all nite are all day are you can adapt and breed what you need are you get out !
X2 |
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TexasHogDogs
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« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 09:09:37 pm » |
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I would like to add.
By no means does this mean my dogs get the hogs all the time sure I get out ran and I get dogs messed up and loose the hog sometimes . But it is not a regular thing and if it was to become a regular thing I would be sure nuff looking at what I needed to add to my dogs to correct this problem . Again that goes back to the individual dog that you need to be looking for to add what you need not the paper are who ever but the dog himself . This is why I love crossed dogs Plott/Bmc/Leopard - Pit/Plott/Bmc/Cat it dont matter to me as long as the dog has it and is a good one.
Do you think Mother Nature give a damn about pretty paper are who's who. I dont think so. Thats why I say put yourself in the wild be the hog now tell me how long you would last with all of us and our dogs chasing you and if you did survive you gonna be a Bad Mo Fo you gonna be a bad bad Jar Headed Boar with some skills and I imagine that sow you fixin to breed is just as bad as you having survived also ! Now Think about the kids you and that sow are fixin to have wooo wee they gonna be doing 4.0 flat fourtys and so then some of them survive to breed hummmmmmmmm no wonder dem hogs are getting so bad !
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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treeingratterrier
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« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 09:52:08 pm » |
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This might hurt some feelings and if it does you might not want to bitch and complain in public you might want to keep quite take some advise and adjust !
Here goes.
I have always said that Mother Nature has the best and most extreme culling system and I try to copy her .
Only the best and strong survive !
Line breeding and some inbreeding is a good thing when used by someone that knows whats going on . Were it goes wrong is when humans start to look at the papers threw rose colored glasses and the papers look so pretty to them but then there is a great side effect to that and that is they become dog blind and what I mean by that is they love the papers more than they love the great dogs and they breed great papers and not great dogs and breed great papers instead of great dogs!
Great dogs being bred to great dogs is were its at ! If you got great dogs with great papers thats even better but when you become blinded by the rose colored glasses and the pretty pedigrees your screwed !
Mother Nature don't give a number 2 only the very best survive to breed again and again !
Thats what has happened to these hogs only the best are surviving the fastest the strongest boars and sows and only the best are surviving and breeding and they are becoming much much better athlete's and they are putting a whooping on a bunch of dogs !
So what happens now is you adapt and breed what you need cause a bunch of pretty papers ain't gonna catch these hogs , So you get your butt kicked chase hogs all nite are all day are you can adapt and breed what you need are you get out !
JUst to toss this out, Mother nature really did not select the best and strongest hog to survive, man trapped up all of the over feral black producers who were dumb enuff to go in a trap and they have been hauled all over the usa now and what u see is not actual natural selection, at least thats my theory in some area, thank the empty gooseneck trailer on ranches full of dumb black hogs that traps caught for these hogs spreading a inferior gene pool all over texas, I think its kinda of the same for some popular dog strains, peeps raise them to sell not to catch hogs seems like or maybe i just gone senilelol Can ypu imagine if only russian type hogs had been allowed to be moved and not the blacker types?? Might need a lot better dog than whats around, but here so many hogs now i could be way way off hard to say one for sure. |
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TexasHogDogs
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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 10:01:48 pm » |
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"""""""I think its kinda of the same for some popular dog strains, peeps raise them to sell not to catch hogs""""""
When a line of dogs goes commerical you can bet your butt it becomes more about money than the dogs maybe not all but a whole chit load of em and then it becomes more about the so called papers and
here we go
o so and so is here and he is there and he is here hell this dog is five times of ole World Hog Champion NumNutss. Then here comes the public man I wants me one of dem World Hog Champion NumNuts dogs I want the PUREST OF THE PURE man my dog is 24 times out of NuMNuts . Not giving a damn about what the dog is just how he is bred !
and in the end who is the real
NuMNuts !
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The older I get the less Stupidity I can stand !
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M Bennet
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« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2011, 10:42:57 pm » |
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iv never seen a set of papers catch hogs, but i have seen pappers cover up sh-t
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Monty Bennet
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YELLOWBLACKMASK
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« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 11:55:39 pm » |
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Emphasized by some ....but practiced by few. ........THE ART OF CULLING A non working product...... Dogs were tools utilized by our forefathers. Simple math if the tool did not work they both starved..thus through deduction I would conclude culls were not tolerated back then due to plain ole survival. If you want the best you can get your hands on don't settle for something you find yourself making excuses for. Discipline yourself to cull even above the bar of decent if you want to mirror the individuals that didn't say ( ole red is just having a bad day so the family can't eat tonight) One dog.......two...a whole litter........several litters...cull till you hit something that you are proud to feed everyday. O yea. JMO...  |
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