"Squirrel factor"

[Noah]

In the breedings I have made and those of friend's I have studied, I have been able to pick out the "squirrels" fairly early... the dogs that, no matter the time invested, seem to have a "kink" and basically act like a wild coyote if you know what I mean....

I have spent the time and effort to try and overcome this "quirk", but have come to terms that because it is such an obvious trait to pick out... it is usually the second to be culled for(second only to conformation)...

Of my last litter out of Shine x Willie, 2/10 were "squirrels"... built extremely well, I kept them and worked with them, to no avail... once a squirrel, always a squirrel...

... SO, to my point of the evening... lol...  Had my eye on a dog for a while now... first time I saw him I was immediately taken by his phyiscal presence... One of those dogs any student of performance animals couldn't but help look at and say "DAMN".....   ... Let's just say he built right....

The dog, "Bob" lets call him  , has been used as a straight, send in catch dog his whole life...  in fact, they actually refer to him as a "bulldog"... but bulldog he ain't...  He is a FINE specimen of "hard" Florida Cur...   

... when I first met "Bob", I was actually down south hunting for a stud prospect for my lead gyp Shiner... I found "Willie" on that trip, but "Bob" was Willie's backup... the catch to the bay...

...Bob was known for being cranky and fickle.... that bad attitude got him sent on down the line... but... I later found out that those that knew him decided to breed him to some "baydogs" for some more baydogs... which confused me at first...  I mean, breeding a straight catch dog to a bay dog?  Hmmmm...


(Intermission, feel free to go get another beer, cuz I am....  )

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Grab 2. It will stall the next intermission. 

[Noah]

"Breeding catch back into a line"....

So... In my last litter, I tried to breed the "head catch" out of my gyp... by breeding her to a dog that was super gritty, but had no "catch" to him...  sounded good right?      Well, out of the 4 pups surviving of that litter... 2 I would consider "fairly gritty", but by no means, as gritty as Shine was at their age... The stud dog certainly knocked the "suicidal" nature out of them... that is a fact...

.... Now I have yet to see these pups really tested to fruition yet to base a final decision on the cross... this spring will tell me alot as they will be a yr and a half and should be truly catching gear.... but my gut tells me I miss the "catch" factor already... I do not want my individual dogs baying a 100# pig.    One dog by itself should eat a hog like this for dinner...

... Which has brought my stud selection thoughts for the next go-round on my Shine dog... back to the rough side...

... Re-enter "Bob"... Precisely what I want in that type of stud... built flawlessly, hard catching... the rest should take care of itself right... 

.... THEN I hear about the "squirrel factor" of "Bob's" last two litters.... 

..apparently old "Bob" has thrown a high percentage(good lookin' mind you  ) "squirrel" factor in both of his last litters... to the point, that those involved have chosen to cease breeding him because of it...

CHIT.  That's about all I got to say about that.

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Noah,

I was recently training some dogs for some buddies up North. There were 2 squirrels in the litter they came from. Neither got a ride back up to YankeeLand. Can they be trained? Yes!  Is it worth it? NO!!!!  To many nice dogs to spend good quality time in the timber with. I can't stand pissing my time away on someone's squirrelly prospect. My perspective anyway.   

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Noah, please explain the "squirrel factor" in greater detail. Some of my line are twisted a little tight and I want to know if the trait is the same that I am experiencing.

[Noah]

Agreed... the thought that is on my mind... at what point in trying to pull good genetics out do you factor in the bad that might come with it... Yes, I could cull 7/10 squirrels and get 3 of what I was after... but that's a high price to pay considering what might, at that point, turn out from the remaining 3...

Genetics are truly a strange thing... sometimes when you see something you really like, it is worth the sacrifice to achieve the goal...  never an easy decision however.

Noah, please explain the "squirrel factor" in greater detail. Some of my line are twisted a little tight and I want to know if the trait is the same that I am experiencing.

Basically, I seem to see it from a fairly early age(5wks and on)... they tend to be loners, not respond to human contact... cower, hide in the corner...  moreover, as they get older, it seems to be an inability to communicate with humans that really gets in the way... you find yourself spending more time acclimating the dog to new things than working on the task at hand... a waste of time when compared to a pup/dog that looks to be your friend/please you from day one...

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Noah,
In the litter I was speaking of, both parents were normal. Nothing even close to twisted in the least. However, the sire's dam was known as a squirrell. What I'm saying is lets say you keep 2 perfect acting pups that are by this "BOB".  It would really suck 3 years down the road to find that they pass a high percentage of this trait to thier pups. You have to ask yourself, is that time wasted or research answered?  Dog feed costs too much these days for me to take that chance.  I'd love to see a pic of BOB though.

[T-Bob Parker]

There's always other studs, does shine have any grandsons?

[Noah]

HAHA, yes you understand my predicament...     I price worth paying to create a better dog however? ....

I may be going down that way soon to hunt and I'll dang sure try and find him to take some shots... he is impressive...

There's always other studs, does shine have any grandsons?

I'm real picky on dogs    Function alone is not good enough for me, they got to be built right on top of it...  Not many out there have both...

No, Shine has no grandsons yet... Her son's Whaler and Sawfish are strong dogs, time will tell if they are breedworthy however...

[T-Bob Parker]

Nothing wrong with being picky. 

[Cutter Bay Kennels]

Nothing wrong with being picky. 

Tell that to my wife. 

[ole shep]

When breeding for above average dogs. I think you can expect a few mental and physical crop outs.JMO

[Noah]

I agree... but in the quest for "better",  what are you willing to tolerate?

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

In the quest for better I will tolerate a 80% cull rate, if I can get 1-2 pups that are exactly what I am looking for I would try it one time. It also depends on how tight the breeding is. I have some of that that shows up in my line and I understand the problem. I would make the cross and keep the whole litter looking for the "one".

[Noah]

In the quest for better I will tolerate a 80% cull rate, if I can get 1-2 pups that are exactly what I am looking for I would try it one time. It also depends on how tight the breeding is. I have some of that that shows up in my line and I understand the problem. I would make the cross and keep the whole litter looking for the "one".

HAHAHA... I already had my mind made up... you are the only person I thought might actually agree with me... 

[Reuben]

Noah,
in the mid to late 1990's I felt it was time to bring in some new blood to my strain of hog dogs I had at the time. A friend had a brother and sister florida cur hog dogs. The female did not hunt much but was one heck of a stop dog. The brother was a good strike dog and could stop a hog. They were red and well built and silent hunters.
They looked like some of my dogs so bred the male to one of my red females. Long story short I culled 7 out of 8 pups due to extreme shyness. The one good (stable temperament) dog I eventually culled because he quit a race after a mile or so at 14 months of age. He turned on but that was unacceptable to me because I liked early starting dogs...also did not like the percentage of culls. Was not in a hurry to get pups at the time but I do agree with Silverton that I will not hesitate to get a few good dogs in a litter...just depends on what I need...

I have had outstanding dogs that were border line timid and they needed special treatment. I tolerated them but would rather have dogs with the right temperaments...I take the extra time to socialize pups because I want to make sure the pups are stable as grown dogs...I have learned over the years to not invest too much time in one of those squirrel dogs you are talking about...

[Noah]

Good insight Reuben... I expected nothing less...

Timid is one thing, "squirrel like" lol is another...     I'd say 3/4's of my dogs are "timid".... I can deal with that...

[tmatt]

Is there any possibility the "squirrels" that "bob" produced could have been due to the bitch's side of the equation? I have seen people breed to a stud dog and get a whole litter of culls and then say it has to be the male dog, when in reality it is the female that is the problem. Some people refuse to admit that their dog just can't produce. They may hunt but just can't produce pups that are worth keeping. One example of this is a breeding I made about 6 years ago with my APBTs. I bred a female off of my yard to this ch male and a good friend of mine bred his female to the same male about 4 months prior to me making my breeding. He had 7 pups out of his breeding and I raised 5. With his pups being older than mine he got the chance to cull or keep his first. He ended up culling all but one of his and that had me worried about how my litter would turn out. When it came time to start culling my I figured I would have to cull most of mine as well. Out of the 5 of mine I only culled one of them. When we started really looking at past breedings with his female we noticed that there was a high percentage of culls in every one of her litters. It went unnoticed because the ones that she produced that weren't culls were very good dogs. If I wouldn't have already made the breeding with my female I probably would not have because I would have assumed it was the male that was not producing. I have since bred 2 other females to the same male and have had good results out of both of them as well. The same friend bred the littermate sister of the one that produced all of the culls to the same male and that particular breeding produced 2 ch and 1 gr ch out of a litter of four. The fourth one was never shown and has just been a pet since it was weaned.

[reatj81]

I try to not just look at the parents, but also the grandparents.  How many of culls were there in the line.  With the price of dogfood, and my time invested, I want as high of percentage as possible.  I dont think it going to be 96% as stated in another post,  but I would like to think before the breading its going to be 70% or greater. 

[Reuben]

I try to not just look at the parents, but also the grandparents.  How many of culls were there in the line.  With the price of dogfood, and my time invested, I want as high of percentage as possible.  I dont think it going to be 96% as stated in another post,  but I would like to think before the breading its going to be 70% or greater. 

When you breed your own line you know exactly the percentage of good hunting dogs behind a pup that you raise...

And I agree with you on looking past the parents. The parents contribute 50% to the pups and the grandparents contribute 25% and the great grandparents 12.5%. So it is very important make sure that at some point there should not be much comprimising when selecting a pup...We need to make sure the pups held back for hunting and breeding are the best from the litter...