Florida cur, Cracker cur, Southern Cur, Florida hog hunting in general history?

[treeingratterrier]

Moving from Tecksus to Florida and been wondering all of my life about why so little history of the florida hog and cow dogs is around, in the 60;s we used to send bull wagons of registered angus bulls to Lykes Bros steamship Co and sometimes we got pups pack from the bull hauler driver, the pups usually looked just like the cur and catahoulas we had down here but sometimes we would get the blockhead type curs from them, asked the guy driving what was the deal and he said those big headed pups came from cracker country and they actually catch cows and hogs with them so they can drag them out to a road where they had a tractor with big tires on it pulling a cow trailer thru the swamp,  he said they had bull dog in them to catch, are there any cracker cattle or dogs left in florida or have they all disapeared???  I am interested in any books or florida  cracker cow or cracker  hog dog websites and anybodys coments on why the dogs in florida seem to have slipped away?  Another question, how many hogs and hogdogers are in Texas vs Florida, is it about the same or way more in texas or whats the aprox amount in each state?? What is a florida cur and what is a cracker cur, are they the same or depends on where u live, is  a southern cur a bulldog strain or whats the deal with the southern meaning? Thanks in advance..

[bucsniper]

from my understanding a cracker cur was a splotted up lookin cur dog with just tan and white and no other colors like a catahoula. And the partin dogs were a black and tan mostly type small cur. And a people's cur dog was just a big cur dog kinda like the carnathen line. Not many people know the truth on florida dogs because most of the old timers have passed on. Now a just regular florida cur dog is red ,tan or bucskin, mostly with a black mouth. a lot of people call all kinda of dogs florida curs but trust me i still remember what the old timers used to tell me and im 33.

[firemedic]

Just hang in there rat.....ther's a wealth of knowledge for you here. It won't be long until you have some answers. Wish I knew more about them myself, since apparently my best dog is a florida cur.

[Reuben]

I don't know much about the florida cur nor the cracker cur but I do remember back in the early 1980's The Ross family in East Texas partnered up with a few dog men and created a registry for the black mouth cur...In some litters they had a few brindles and at that time they did not want to register them with the YBMC so they registered them as Southern Curs.

[hogaholicswife]

Alot of people have been breeding them for $$$ with little regard for the actual preservation....the name Partin sells like hot cakes. 

My grandaddy said that a true Fl Curr was a red bone hound (I believe) and bull dog, over the years the different families bred them for what suited their purposes / needs.  My mom was telling me the other day about an old timer that had some of the ugliest fiesty looking currs in Brighton, she said that they were some of the ugliest monkey tailed little dogs but everyone wanted one because they knew they would make dogs.

There are some dogs down in Devils Gardens and Moore Haven that they still use to find and catch what the cowboys call 'dick bulls' which have never been penned.  These dogs are salty as the day is long with a pile of heart and go.  Most are very catchy that I have seen but there are some that will back up and bay.

Alot of them are either black and tan, yellow (some have black mouths)or red with a ring neck.  When I refer to a black mouth dog alot of people think I am talking about the 'Foundation Dogs' but when I was growing up black mouth just meant their markings.  They also vary in uniformity, their suzes are not consistent and their heads can range from block heads to fiesty looking.

The Documentary 'Florida Crackers' would be a good one to watch for the xow fogs, you can also Google 'Judge Story Teller' in Florida, he has taken pictures of the cowboys roping bulls in Devils Gardens. 

When I make it home I will post the links for you to check out.

[Noah]

One of my favorite subjects...    "labels" are just tools by which to market an animal for sale... but this is some of what I know about the working dogs of Florida....

Been able to spend a lot of time over the years with some sho enough Florida Crackers... their family helped settle Florida back when there were still indians roaming around... can not begin to tell you some of the stories I have heard from these people...  To understand their dogs, it helps, first, to understand the people that used them...

Cattle/hogs were freeranged back in the day, no property lines, no fences... A man's "mark" (along with his reputation to defend it)was all that showed ownership of livestock... Rustling/stealing livestock was not uncommon and that created an atmosphere of distrust between many ranch families that still is evident today believe it or not...  I know of neighboring ranches that will have nothing to do with each other because they believe their great, great, great grand-dads "stole" a few cattle from each other lol... crazy... 

Many of the old families that are still around, are still quite reclusive... Hard to befriend(trust me)... but if you can gain their trust, they have an absolute wealth of knowledge about "The Way It Was"(book I highly recommend on the subject)...  Many of these same old ranching families have sold off their land, downsized over the years, yet still remain just as secretive/protective of the dogs that have helped their families survive for hundreds of years...

Florida curs are a mix of alot of dogs, the old blood dogs I have seen all seem to have a distinct "look" to them based on the ranch they came from... the original dogs apparently had a much colder nose than what is necessary today, as working cattle before the time of fences often involved tracking cattle for miles before one could even begin the task of penning them up...  The same dogs that were used for this also worked hogs, and were even used to hunt deer with the men shooting from horseback... stories of these same dogs tracking down day old tracks of indians exist... There is no doubt that the old Fl cow men liked their dogs rough... but most seemed to have a mixed pack of looser bay dogs with a few meat heads to catch hogs/ornery cattle with...  The broad, "box" head of a Florida cur is an unmistakable trait with the breed...

One conversation in particular that stuck with me... I was talkin' dogs with two old timers and was asking them where their family got their dogs from... they laughed and both agreed that whenever they could not find a good cur dog, they would just make one by crossing a hound with a bulldog...

In my travels, I have met some truly "historic" Fl Crackers that still have the dogs of their ancestors... I've accidentally stumbled into many of them... haha, and it's amazing how protective of the dogs they can be...  often times, they don't even want you lookin' in their pens unless they really know you   I have seen pens full of GORGEOUS dogs, that look unlike anything I could compare... distinct lines of animals breed by each individual family for generations...

Do to time constraints(work seems to always get in the way  ), I have been unable to thoroughly scour the state to document all these amazing animals... In my opinion, Florida holds a treasure trove of working dog genetics that for the most part, is undiscovered...

I could go on and on, I wish I had pictures to show you of just some of the examples I have seen...  What I currently hunt is straight FL cur from south FL cattle country... good examples of what a Florida Cur generally looks like(maybe a "tad" more refined... but still similar  )

[Noah]

Couple pics of my FL curs...

Sawfish and Whaler(7/8 FL cur x 1/8 English Pointer)


Chub dog(3/4 FL cur x 1/4 EP)

[cajunl]

The curs are the same as anywhere else.

In La. someone dubbed the leopard ones  catahoula.

In tx the yellow ones are blackmouth or yellow.

But I think the all developed the same. A need for a stock dog.

Tratterrier I hear you moved to Groveland. My buddy I hunt with over there has been working cows and hunting that area for 50 years. Shoot me a pm

[firemedic]

See ratterrier,......I told you that there was a wealth of info on here.

[treeingratterrier]

One of my favorite subjects...    "labels" are just tools by which to market an animal for sale... but this is some of what I know about the working dogs of Florida....

Been able to spend a lot of time over the years with some sho enough Florida Crackers... their family helped settle Florida back when there were still indians roaming around... can not begin to tell you some of the stories I have heard from these people...  To understand their dogs, it helps, first, to understand the people that used them...

Cattle/hogs were freeranged back in the day, no property lines, no fences... A man's "mark" (along with his reputation to defend it)was all that showed ownership of livestock... Rustling/stealing livestock was not uncommon and that created an atmosphere of distrust between many ranch families that still is evident today believe it or not...  I know of neighboring ranches that will have nothing to do with each other because they believe their great, great, great grand-dads "stole" a few cattle from each other lol... crazy... 

Many of the old families that are still around, are still quite reclusive... Hard to befriend(trust me)... but if you can gain their trust, they have an absolute wealth of knowledge about "The Way It Was"(book I highly recommend on the subject)...  Many of these same old ranching families have sold off their land, downsized over the years, yet still remain just as secretive/protective of the dogs that have helped their families survive for hundreds of years...

Florida curs are a mix of alot of dogs, the old blood dogs I have seen all seem to have a distinct "look" to them based on the ranch they came from... the original dogs apparently had a much colder nose than what is necessary today, as working cattle before the time of fences often involved tracking cattle for miles before one could even begin the task of penning them up...  The same dogs that were used for this also worked hogs, and were even used to hunt deer with the men shooting from horseback... stories of these same dogs tracking down day old tracks of indians exist... There is no doubt that the old Fl cow men liked their dogs rough... but most seemed to have a mixed pack of looser bay dogs with a few meat heads to catch hogs/ornery cattle with...  The broad, "box" head of a Florida cur is an unmistakable trait with the breed...

One conversation in particular that stuck with me... I was talkin' dogs with two old timers and was asking them where their family got their dogs from... they laughed and both agreed that whenever they could not find a good cur dog, they would just make one by crossing a hound with a bulldog...

In my travels, I have met some truly "historic" Fl Crackers that still have the dogs of their ancestors... I've accidentally stumbled into many of them... haha, and it's amazing how protective of the dogs they can be...  often times, they don't even want you lookin' in their pens unless they really know you   I have seen pens full of GORGEOUS dogs, that look unlike anything I could compare... distinct lines of animals breed by each individual family for generations...

Do to time constraints(work seems to always get in the way  ), I have been unable to thoroughly scour the state to document all these amazing animals... In my opinion, Florida holds a treasure trove of working dog genetics that for the most part, is undiscovered...

I could go on and on, I wish I had pictures to show you of just some of the examples I have seen...  What I currently hunt is straight FL cur from south FL cattle country... good examples of what a Florida Cur generally looks like(maybe a "tad" more refined... but still similar  )

  That hound with bulldog remark sure struck me, Jude Hart was orginally from Florida, he came over by wagon with his family and his dogs, the dogs that i got from Lavon Davis that I bred and fooled with for about 10 years used to throw a lot of white hound like markings on the chest and feet and were almost white white yellow, I was inbreeding them heavily as i had no other dogs and they got lite as heck and had the hound type resemlance ear markings and that dewlap, i have seen those traits still showing up on pictures of blackmouth curs on here, some owned and still own dogs that trace back to Jude hart and Lavons dogs, so it makes sense that if Jude came from florida his dogs might have been created like that and had hound influnece in them, all i know is those dogs hunted as a rule way way wider and trailed more than the usual cowdog types i was fooling with from down here, I been searching southern airboat about the Partin dogs and ranch as well and it is very interesting as well about there strain of dogs as well, thats why I love the internet nowdays, you can figure out who was where and what dogs they had and almost always if they had there own strain going or bought dogs or what the deal was, plus now you can go back and spot the promoters created bloodlines and stay away from them, why would anybody want to crossbreed to different strains of black mouthcurs i have never figured out, if they were working in florida for the crackers they wood for sure work in texas, south texas has no history of cowdog strains, almost all of the cowdogs came out of east texas and la and florida if u look closely and seperate out the hypes.  Thanks to all of u guys for posting up, pretty crazy to think dogs from Florida had such an influnce in texas, they had to walk behing a wagon to get here and hunt and work cattle along the way!! 

[treeingratterrier]

I found this website with Florida curs from the Partins  pretty cool strain of dogs, i loved the baying up of those cows, has anybody on here close to them to know the dogs or own any of them,  there is a picture of the old man himself a AQHA hall of famer on this website link as well as 2 pages of there cur dogs, Noah, are u hunting these dogs or some like them??

http://tsnakecattleco.com/dogs


I agree that Florida still has some unknown strains of cur dogs still going, I bet they could tell exactly how they bred the dogs and no telling what is in there scrap books and memories.

[treeingratterrier]

they have a facebook site as wll found this picture of there cur dogs on a truck bed, look at the ear and white on the feet of the dog laying down  http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/301995_259026230807471_159029587473803_722369_2136817743_n.jpg

[Noah]

I've hunted with a few good Partin dogs, they have a very distinct look to them usually... round muscled head, big doe eyes.  Not seen one I'd want to bring into my breeding program yet, but wouldn't doubt if way back my dogs have some old Partin blood in them...  do see that "look" show up on the head of some individuals occasionally...

Mark Chesser's got a good Partin dog he hunts.

There's a big ranch down in Myakka that has some dogs I'd kill to get some blood off of, basically RCD's, but that's how a lot of the cowboys hunt down there... One dog in particular looks like a cross between a BMC and a Dogo... a creme colored dog with a box head to die for lol.. probably a good 100# dog used on cattle and hogs... what makes me bring it up is, again, the complete originality of "type" in this specimen... just don't see dogs around that you could compare him to... a distinct line of cur for sure...

they have a facebook site as wll found this picture of there cur dogs on a truck bed, look at the ear and white on the feet of the dog laying down  http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/301995_259026230807471_159029587473803_722369_2136817743_n.jpg

Def looks like some hound in the woodpile 

[treeingratterrier]

I've hunted with a few good Partin dogs, they have a very distinct look to them usually... round muscled head, big doe eyes.  Not seen one I'd want to bring into my breeding program yet, but wouldn't doubt if way back my dogs have some old Partin blood in them...  do see that "look" show up on the head of some individuals occasionally...

Mark Chesser's got a good Partin dog he hunts.

There's a big ranch down in Myakka that has some dogs I'd kill to get some blood off of, basically RCD's, but that's how a lot of the cowboys hunt down there... One dog in particular looks like a cross between a BMC and a Dogo... a creme colored dog with a box head to die for lol.. probably a good 100# dog used on cattle and hogs... what makes me bring it up is, again, the complete originality of "type" in this specimen... just don't see dogs around that you could compare him to... a distinct line of cur for sure...

they have a facebook site as wll found this picture of there cur dogs on a truck bed, look at the ear and white on the feet of the dog laying down  http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/301995_259026230807471_159029587473803_722369_2136817743_n.jpg

Def looks like some hound in the woodpile 

  Gees, anyway u could post a picture of the creme colored dog, how tall is that rascal??  Sure sounds like u discovered a sleeper strain, its driven me crazy trying to figure out how these curs got bred in the first place, one thing i found in fooling with the rat terriers is that almost every rat terrier can be traced to who was breeding that particlular type of terrier,  u see it over and over especuially if you heavy inbreed like i do, thats why one should stay away from dogs whose history is unknow or a secretlol  Might not mean anything if the particular dog is firecracker but start breeding one like that not knowing and you might get a missfire for sure.  What do you know about the dogs you have now, are they all florida curs or what do yall call them and how are they bred??  Are they more a ruff type dog or a bay type dog or both??

[Noah]

Cream colored dog was built just how mine are built, just bigger obviously... Extremely balanced/proportionate cur dog... The owner had pretty much stopped hunting with him because he was too valuable as a cow dog.  Wish I had taken pics, but people like that tend to get twitchy if you show too much interest, if you know what I mean...
 
As for the dogs I have, defenitely on the rough side... Know probably ten or so generations back, but crossed on an unknown "freak" dog lol.... Time will tell if that was wise or not

[crackerc]

What part of Fla are you in? I have had Fla curs for almost 30 years. I managed ranches for several years and have used these dogs on both cattle and hogs. It is my opinion that the Fla curs seem to be rougher, as a breed, than most of the other curs. Some have bulldog in them I am sure, but a lot of the cattlemen don't want bulldog in them. I for one have spent years trying to get some of the bite bred OUT of mine. My old dogs used to be "bark once or twice and catch".....about ANY hog. After sewing and stapling dogs, vet bills, dogs out of commission for weeks, etc, and doing this for 20 years,  I decided there must be a better way. Sure, you will catch a lot of hogs with the rough dogs, but it only takes one bad hog to put you out of commission too........

Here is a pic of my Monkey dog. He is 6 1/2 years old.


This is my Spur dog. He is sired by Monkey and out of one of my females, and is 5 years old. Note the white ringneck, white chest and feet. I get a lot of ringnecks in my dogs.


I also get a lot of red dogs. This is Scarlet.

[dan]

I have owned and/or hunted with Florida curs, most of my life.  The only traits that every dog had in common, were hunting, catching and short hair.  They were purpose bred and culled.  Ours were cow dog culls from Okeechobee.  Either they trailed too long, or were too rough on yearlings.  That's the only two reasons we got them.  And they were free, because they were culls.

About 6 years ago, I realized that the name "Florida Cur" had been stolen to drive prices up.  That's how I slowly moved over to Jagds.  I couldn't find or afford any curs with the ability or toughness that compared to those ranch dogs.

I believe the best working cur blood is in South Florida, dog jockeys and money have robbed the name and history of the Florida cur.

[Reuben]

 Ours were cow dog culls from Okeechobee.  Either they trailed too long, or were too rough on yearlings.  That's the only two reasons we got them.  And they were free, because they were culls.

This is the main reason I stay away from the cow bred dogs...but some baying styles will keep the hogs bayed. If the dogs are bred to go deep in the woods to find, stop and bay, or, catch wild cattle then we are talking about a good dog or line of dogs that in my mind will make a top notch hog dog.

But then we have the dogs that are controlled to work closely with the cowboy to bunch up and drive catlle. The range is bred out of that dog or line of dogs because it is not a desirable trait in this style of cow dogs... and the nose and hunt is not tested because it is not required...So how many generations of this does it take to breed out or lose the hunting traits??? I know that good hunting dogs will pop up here and there from this type of breeding selection but the percentages will be lowered and probably progress to lower as more generations are bred.

not trying to stir the pot but this has been a personal theory of mine for many years...theory should have been my middle name

so what are your thoughts on said subject...we are talking about history of the cur but times have been changing and the deep hunting, long range cow dogs are no longer needed for the average cowboy/rancher but I do know we still have a few around and that is where the cow dogs live that make the best hog dogs...Strictly my opinion but I suspect many others feel and think the same.

[bulldogger]

I'll add my 2 cents and it may not be worth that.  I am from Texas but lived in Floriday in the early 2000's.  I was lucky enough to get invited with a couple buddies to go on a hunt with some great people that own one of the largest cattle operations in Florida for over 100 years.  He was a great guy and family were as nice as can be.  They took us hog hunting with two of their currs.  Only had the female on ground with her son in truck for backup.  He was never needed.  We all killed pigs that day and was very impressed with the abilty of the cur.  I asked about the cur and he said it had been in his family for generations and bred for cattle and hogs.  He has other ranching friends that he still breeds dogs with.  I asked about where they originated and he said about 100 years ago they would add in what was needed to continually make good dogs.  He said the three main dogs used 100 years ago were: Redbone, German Shorthair and Rhodesian ridgeback.  He said each brought something to table and they breed a little more or less in until they got what they wanted and bred pretty true.  H said he was told this by his grandfather.  I was surprised that there was Rhidgeback in Florida 100 years ago and he was positive there was because of what old timers told him. Take it for what it is worth but this guy had no reason to lie and had pictures that were very old and still had tons of land and is very well respected.  His biggest issues was poachers on his land.  When we hunted with him he had a shattered leg from flipping his airboat chasing poachers at night on one of his properties that always gets poached.  The cur dog would stop any smaller hog and a cowboy was following that dog on a horse and we followed in a jeep.  We would get close and line up shot with finger off of trigger.  He would say bay, bay and dog would back up and he would say take your shot and it would be doen deal.

[crackerc]

Bulldogger, both you and Rueben have true statements. I have been around the Fla cur dogs myself for 50 years. A lot of them used to come what the old timers called "pieded" which was black and white or red and white. When the YBM cur became popular ( and started bringing top dollar) many people went to breeding for the yellow color. Some of the Fla dogs were that color to start with, but they came about every other color also. I had a litter that had 5 black & white pups in it and an old timer came and bought one and said lots of the old dogs looked like that. He was 82 years old and been in Fla his whole life. And that was about 15-17 years ago.

My original female that started me in the Fla curs, 6 generations of dogs ago, was a yellow bob tailed ringneck dog. They told me at that time she has both bird dog and ridgeback in her, but just a little of each. My only litter out of her ( she was about 10 when I got her) she produced 5 pups out of a litter of 10 that had ridgebacks, even though her nor the male had them. That was the only litter I have ever had with ridges, and even though I kept two females out of that litter, they never produced a ridgeback.

But ranchers don't use the curs like they used to. Just think it was in the 1950's before there were any fence laws in Fla. Until that point they had to have a dog that would hit the woods, find and bay cattle in palmettos, cypress, etc. Now most cattle are in open improved pastures and the dogs don't have to find them. There are exceptions, but most of the big places have been split up and divided and improved for beef production.

Anyway, starting to ramble so I will close. Don't know if you will be able to see it in the pic, but this is my old PJ dog, a littermate to Dixie's grandmother. She was a yellow ringenck 3/4 tail dog with a ridge. Thats Dixie in the pic with her.