Cow Dog Question

[gomer]

I am just getting into working cows with dogs.  I have two young bmc one is about 1 year old and the other is about 7 months old.  They are doing good in my opinion.  Here my problem I was working them the other day and they were baying good, but they started getting really rough wouldnt back up and give them any releif.  What is the best way to get them to back up?  Any other tips on training would be really appreciated. 

[3Whoghunter]

My buddies dogs was like that he put ole Sparky on em every time they went to bite while the cow was stopped he'd hit em but if it was trying to run or break away he let em nip but not full out get down on it. He said it worked fine but that's just how he done it

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Biting a cow in a settled bay is a genetic fault that is not easily fixed. Are they circling hard and just hitting anything they can reach as they go by or are they sitting still focusing on a single cow?

How many head are you working and what are they?

You might try using one dog at a time and see if that loosens them up. Or you could add more cattle and or tougher horned cattle. But at that age not respecting the bay is bad news.

If you want to shoot some video and send it to me I will tell you what I think about how to help them work a little better.

[Circle C]

I am having an issue with a dog I recently started on cattle, and figured I would ask here too.


She bays loose, doesn't mess with settled cattle anymore (after a couple verbal corrections early on), however yesterday she was in the pasture on two different heifers that I had to rope. Once they were roped, she was catching them.   This same dog when baying hogs is a loose dog, but will help once the catch dog catches.  I just told her to get out in a firm voice, it took getting onto her several times to get her to back off of them.  She then did it on the second heifer I roped...   You think a trashbreaker is the answer here?


Second question:

    What is a common command used for the dogs to back up, so that I can push through a gate, or just to let up some pressure?  I have a tendency to tell her to "get out"  When I tell her that, she quits the cattle and walks away, then I have to put her back on them.  It's almost like an on/off switch, when what I really need is a dimmer.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Chris, its VERY common for a dog to catch a roped cow. To them it is the same as another dog hitting up.

What kind of dog is it?

My comands: "Get out" means quit and get behind my horse. "Easy" means losen up. "Laed'um" means lead and let them move out.

You should be able to have the dog lead through a gate but with green dogs or real strong dogs I sometimes get them out and behind the horse. When working real strong dogs and dog broke cattle you can open and ride through the gate and have the dogs bring them behind you.

[Circle C]

Thanks for the info Paul,

   The dog is Ruby, my 3 year old cur/plott cross.  She is 7/8 cur x 1/8 plott, out of Brandy (Tweety x Winchester)  x Pancho ( 3/4 cur x 1/4 plott)   I used her on hogs a couple years, and have recently started her on cows at home. Haven't taken her to any open country yet, as I want to get a strong handle on her working cows, and not have her off hunting hogs a mile deep.


I think I can work with the commands you are using.  Something didn't feel right about telling her to get out, but it's almost second nature for me to say that when they are doing something "wrong"

I've got another older dog, Mandi's Lizzie dog that will bay the cows, but the minute a rope comes out, she's gone.  Her previous owner ( 3-4 years ago) got pretty rough with her using a rope to discipline her, and he must have left one hell of an impression.  I'll be able to mess with her at the house, but I can't see ever being about to really put her to work. Not to mention she's pretty well earned her retirement.

Back to the catching a roped cow.   How would you recommend correcting that behavior?

[gomer]

3W I have considered that I just didn't want them to quit on me.  Thanks, I may see if I can get one and try it since it worked for your buddy.

Silverton  they are still circling good and they will get rough on anything that has its head down.  They dont focus on one cow.  I started them on two roping steers and the other day I was working them on 4 brangus cows and a Charlios Bull.  I dont mind them getting rough, but the other day they cattle were bayed and they wouldnt give them any relief and it caused the bull to run off.  If they would have just backed up just a little bit they would have worked perfect.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

[hogdog05]

Gomer we need to get together and work our pups.  Mine tend to work on one single cow causeing her to break out and hole up, but are getting better.  I am working on their back up also and let em settle.  Had some bucking stock get in with my cows the other day and one of pounded both pups pretty hard.  I tried to get em out before they got hurt bit both wouldn't let up.  I was glad to see they didn't quit.  I was able to get the bucking bulls out let and move them around and pen em.  I also got to send em to one bunch call em off and send em to the other bunch which was their first time dining that.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Back to the catching a roped cow.   How would you recommend correcting that behavior?

Chris, I use my stock whip. You might try the e-collar, not to much juice and make sure to use the out command. The best way to work on that would be with someone else roping and you working the dog. I would not be surprised if you can't fix this problem. My old dog Punchy would be caught on an ear of a cow, roped or not, and just look at me untill I cocked my pistol and then he would just close his eyes and bear-down and take the rat shot rather than spit the ear.

But it seams she is a softer type dog and you might get some improvement. When working on a dog like this, rope your cow and then get real short, get the cows head up to your horses shoulder. Scold the dog off and "take possession" of the cow the way you would a dead or tied hog. The cow will want to be up next to the horse for protection from the dog. Easier than you might think. Let the dog cool down a little and then you should be able to drive the cow out ahead of you and the dog should stay off. If you try and drag or lead them anywhere the dog will hit up again because the cow appears to be in distress and vulnerable, thus triggering the catch reflex again.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

Silverton  they are still circling good and they will get rough on anything that has its head down.  They dont focus on one cow.  I started them on two roping steers and the other day I was working them on 4 brangus cows and a Charlios Bull.  I dont mind them getting rough, but the other day they cattle were bayed and they wouldnt give them any relief and it caused the bull to run off.  If they would have just backed up just a little bit they would have worked perfect.

That sounds better when explained in more detail. There is a learning curve with young dogs and how much pressure they need. I would work one at a time see if there is an improvement. A bay is not truly settled if the cows are still putting their heads down. Heads up and to the inside and all feet are still. Bulls are bad to break like that so I would try and work cows and yearlings. If I get a young dog getting to tight I will sometimes ride up and flush the cattle. This will force the dogs to re-bunch, this is more work for them. Reward good style with less work and bad style with more work. Also with young fresh dogs I like to air them out pretty good before I send them to cattle. Tired young dogs can hear, fresh young dogs are deaf. 

Hope that helps,
Paul T

[gomer]

Thanks Paul for all the advice.   Next time I work them Ill use your advice and then Ill let you know how they do.  Ill try to get a video too.

Hogdog05 Next time I am going to work my pups Ill let you know and you do the same.  I dont have as good of handle on mine yet I dont think I could send them and then call them back.  How did you get a good enough handle on them to do that.