have a breeding question

[Purebreedcolt]

Ok here it goes and hope I make since.  Do pups take after more the female or the male in breeding?  Say I breed bulldog male to ridgeback female are the pups going to come out more like ridgeback or bulldog?  If viseversa male ridgeback over bulldog female which they going to be more like?  When I ask this I mean in confermation ie head leg etc?  Never thought about it till I was reading another website and they were saying the females gave more confermation as the males gave more of the senses.  I don't know so this is why I'm asking for answers from more knowledgeable people than myself.

[Purebreedcolt]

Anyone?

[TexasHogDogs]

I aint touching that one. 

[Purebreedcolt]

Lol understand but used this as an example.  In yalls experience does the female or male have more on the physical charteristcs of pups

[TexasHogDogs]

Well I have seen this and this is just me. Now this is just the outside of a dog.  The female to me has put the attuide .  I guess you would say the Nasty, the mind set in my dogs over the years seems like and the male to me has more to do with the physical side of things, the bone the structure of the dog.  Thats a tuff ? man cause all the book heads are gonna come out and say now thats not how it is but I say to them put them damn books down and get you some hands on then tell me .

I will say this I would take a great brood bitch any day over a great stud dog !

[Reuben]

I don't know much about genetics so what I have come to realize is when you don't fully understand then only breed the best, and related is where it is at...the best defense is a good offense...

What I have read and what makes sense to me is that there are 23 pairs of chromosomes, the 23rd is the sex chromosome and the male determines the sex of the pup...reason being is that he has the XY chromosome because xy is always the male and XX is the female. The X chromosome is larger than the Y chromosome so Because X is larger then it contains more genes and some believe that because of this the female influences the pups more than the Y.

another theory is that the pups are influenced more by the mother because she is raising them and this causes the pups to learn from her (the environment) because she is always around them. In other words a learned behavior and not genetic driven...

It is possible that because the larger chromosomes are X and the female carries two X's as compared to the one X from the male... and the X chromosome contains more genetic material than Y, then the reasoning is that the female must contribute more to the pups than the male.

The sire's dam is a very important player when breeding dogs as is the mother to the pups...

But somehow I believe that the Y chromosome is a major player even if smaller...

I better stop before I confuse myself.

If I want more grit I would breed a female pit but the ridgeback also brings some grit.

[got2catchem]

Well I have seen this and this is just me. Now this is just the outside of a dog.  The female to me has put the attuide .  I guess you would say the Nasty, the mind set in my dogs over the years seems like and the male to me has more to do with the physical side of things, the bone the structure of the dog.  Thats a tuff ? man cause all the book heads are gonna come out and say now thats not how it is but I say to them put them damn books down and get you some hands on then tell me .

I will say this I would take a great brood bitch any day over a great stud dog !

Jimmy, to look at your explanation, more in depth. Do you believe that males are typically bred more based off of their physical and performance characteristics vs a female? Thus us as breeders, we may possibily keep a critical eye for those certain traits to appear in pups. The same being said for the females regarding attitude. I could see if a person bred a line of dogs long enough, the cycle would continue with each generation, becoming more uniform until you reach the too tight point. Just some room for thought.

I know for myself, I try my hardest to completely disregard looks when looking at a possible breeding and aim more for performance. Not to say, I dont pay attention to confirmation, just not color, toes, head, etc....lol

[TexasHogDogs]

Well Got2 u know were I come from breeding dogs and this statement here that you make is gold were I come from and how I was taught.

I know for myself, I try my hardest to completely disregard looks when looking at a possible breeding and aim more for performance. Not to say, I don't pay attention to confirmation, just not color, toes, head, etc....lol

Everybody loves a great good looking dog I do myself but Iam like you when it comes to this I kinda let the looks take care of themselves Iam not concerned about color , the head , shoulder width just stuff like that now with that said if Iam going to breed to a certain male are female of a certain line I will know as much about that line as I can and I notice the little things that I know might come from that line of dogs such as the depth of the chest for good air and wind does this dog conform to its back ground does it look like it is suppose to look coming from this bloodline and yes I have even looked at the color of the toe nails , how much black does this dog have in his mouth, how much is he suppose to have when looking back at this line its the little things that matter more than the things that hit people in the face when they look at a dog.

Jimmy, to look at your explanation, more in depth. Do you believe that males are typically bred more based off of their physical and performance characteristics vs a female?

To this question , I say yes but it is a mistake if you ask me.  I know men that would take a great male that has proven himself over and over to a female that was super bred and never touched never worked never tested in the field they would say just because she was bred great she didn't have to perform as great as the male are any were close are any at all to what the male is if she performs any at all.  Now let me tell you threw trial and error I have done this my self and it was a mistake when breeding performance dogs because if you don't know then that is like rolling the dice on everything you have built lets say she is a worthless untested super bred 15 times off this super dog are that super dog line bred threw the Gad Zoo and  you breed her to your best proven studd hoss well now what do you got ?  You got a liter of pups with her worthless super bred genes in them.  Will they perform sure they will might have some super dogs in there so over the years you breed to them now what has happen you have dispersed her worthless bad genes threwout your yard .  What happens now ? Well you get a few liters from these dogs but there are not as many great dogs and a bunch  more culls and you are still breeding this gene pool into you yard of dogs what happens next?  All the sudden your high percentages are gone down down down  now you got more culls than you do good dogs from this super bred buch of mush hounds and why ?  All because five years ago you bred to this one Super bred untested piece of trash just because she is out of Mr Super dog 15 times she was never tested she was never proven she never did anything and she was a SUPER BRED CULL you bred into your line of dogs and now it is scattered threw out your yard and it is scattered all over hell to the people that got dogs from  you off this Super Cull .

So man is it worth it ? Hell no!  You breed proven dogs to proven bitches !  This holds true for any kind of performance dog there is be it bird dog , coon dog, hog dog and any kind of breed.

Richard I know a man that spent a small fortune buying dogs off of B.S. and B.S. bred now you think about those initials you will know who it is ,  some 30 dogs and guess what he ended up doing with them when B.S. didn't do his Job?  He was so mad and so disgusted  He went back home to Arizona and culled  and buried some 30 dogs in the Arizona desert with all thirty dogs tails sticking a foot out of the ground !


So now how many people want to breed to a super bred on proven untested Bitch ?


Damn I need to write a book on that lmao !

[got2catchem]

LOL... I knew that would get you to typing.... Now lets think about this.... Would it be possible, and how feasible would it be to recover your line after making the breeding to the heavy bred female only to find out two or three generations down, you have inadvertently watered your dogs down? Or do you cull and start from scratch?

Would it be possible through strict line breeding to the male side, in hopes that performance (hopefully dominant) traits resurface? I would guess you would have to cull particulary, should the undesired traits appear (that being said, if you are even able to recognize them).

Or.....

By actually starting to cull un-apprehensively you are starting over to try and create the uniformity that you had before the doomed breeding.

Either way, I can see that one dumb breeding could possibly set you back for years. And to be honest, with dominant and recessive genes playing a factor, there might be a chance that once you go off the beaten path, you can never recover. There are just so many variables. Maintain consistency in your breeding from the begining (performance to performance) as you said, is probably the best advice   More food for thought...

[TexasHogDogs]

Well that is a very hard question to answer it really really is.  I know people that have done this maybe not with a particular gyp but I have know men that have bred four gens deep and have great great dogs threw out all of this .   Then they get a wild hair and they go off and breed to this super bred stud that was really not proven proven just thought are hear say to be proven know what I mean  .  They are so wound up in the dogs great ped that they took the chance and five six years later are cleaning out their yards !  This is after they have done bred the bad gene pool threw out there yard making crosses and also family breedings.  You do family breedings of this type your are threw it may not be till two years later are three but you can bet yo sweet tussy you are done !

Here's the kicker on all of this .

Yes you can breed to this dog to your proven great bred bitch and sure you are going to get some super dogs some great dogs you might not even have a cull in that first breeding .  But here's the catch . You had all these good dogs in that liter so man you are on top of the world so then you breed some of these dogs across your yard well now again you might have a high percentage liter , then you breed those dogs and what happens


All the sudden out of no were !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You Percentages drop boom ten pups 6 culls 4 half ass dogs.  You are saying wow must not have clicked this time .  Then you are breeding to some more stuff from this dogs brother boom ten pups 8 culls 2 half ass dogs.  All across the yard anything and everything with this Super Culls gene pool in there is now starting to react . Now you are saying what the hell and scratching your ass so you try another breeding with some more of this stuff that Super cull is in and bam man ten pups ten culls.

The deal is each time your bred those dogs with that Super Cull in there even tho you were having some good dogs at first  those bad genes were double tripling and so on and so fourth now all the sudden this bad gene pool has over ridden the good genes from  your good dogs and man o man one Super bred Cull screw up four gens of dogs .

How hard would this be to re coupe???

Almost impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Haul you some dirt in there cause you ain't got nuff !

[TexasHogDogs]

Lmao !  Richard you damn well know me to well !!!!!! Lmao !

[got2catchem]

Lmao !  Richard you damn well know me to well !!!!!! Lmao !

  Good discussion, that can only be kept up with using a flow chart....lol

I am in North Dakota for the week, with nothing to do...

[TexasHogDogs]

ahahahaha kinda repeated myself there but that crap is hard to explain with out going threw all of it .  You need to get you one of these pup off this next breeding to go with that stuff you already got.  Cold up thre?

[Reuben]

Well that is a very hard question to answer it really really is.  I know people that have done this maybe not with a particular gyp but I have know men that have bred four gens deep and have great great dogs threw out all of this .   Then they get a wild hair and they go off and breed to this super bred stud that was really not proven proven just thought are hear say to be proven know what I mean  .  They are so wound up in the dogs great ped that they took the chance and five six years later are cleaning out their yards !  This is after they have done bred the bad gene pool threw out there yard making crosses and also family breedings.  You do family breedings of this type your are threw it may not be till two years later are three but you can bet yo sweet tussy you are done !

Here's the kicker on all of this .

Yes you can breed to this dog to your proven great bred bitch and sure you are going to get some super dogs some great dogs you might not even have a cull in that first breeding .  But here's the catch . You had all these good dogs in that liter so man you are on top of the world so then you breed some of these dogs across your yard well now again you might have a high percentage liter , then you breed those dogs and what happens


All the sudden out of no were !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You Percentages drop boom ten pups 6 culls 4 half ass dogs.  You are saying wow must not have clicked this time .  Then you are breeding to some more stuff from this dogs brother boom ten pups 8 culls 2 half ass dogs.  All across the yard anything and everything with this Super Culls gene pool in there is now starting to react . Now you are saying what the hell and scratching your ass so you try another breeding with some more of this stuff that Super cull is in and bam man ten pups ten culls.

The deal is each time your bred those dogs with that Super Cull in there even tho you were having some good dogs at first  those bad genes were double tripling and so on and so fourth now all the sudden this bad gene pool has over ridden the good genes from  your good dogs and man o man one Super bred Cull screw up four gens of dogs .

How hard would this be to re coupe???

Almost impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Haul you some dirt in there cause you ain't got nuff !

x2...you can breed down or breed up. breeding up is only breeding top of the line males and females of a related family of dogs. the big mistake is outcrossing to an unfamiliar line of dogs. Once the line is bred tight and you bring in a super duper stud that is a 1/4 cat, 1/4 bmc with 1/2 redbone and cross it into your tight line of cur dogs then you just brought in a bunch of trash and you might get a once in a lifetime dog that can't reproduce himself... and the rest of the pups are culls...I reckon that is why we have so many culls.

like Texashogdog said earlier...it is the little things that we should look at...a dog man spends days, months, and sometimes years deciding who to breed too and why. And then critique the hell out of the litter of pups...

If color was a hunting trait everyone would have a good hunting dog...

having said all of that...when you have a long line of nothing but yellow dogs and you cross in an unknown dog that hunts well and he is a brindle dog then how many brindle pups will you have when you cross this dog with the yellow dogs??? could be 4 or could be 10 brindle pups and probable other colors and a few yellow ones...that is the way I see hunting traits but they are not visible...studying the pups and testing in the woods will tell you...but I look at the little things and after a while you can see tell tell signs in a pup if you know your line of dogs...but nothing is a 100% until you see it in the woods.

here is some good logic. a king in the old days told his son...if you want your sons to be brave warriors and leaders and your daughters to be beautiful then find a bride that her brothers are great leaders and warriors and the women to be beautiful...marry even if she is only fair...because she will give you what you want...but do not marry a beatiful girl from a long line of inadequate warriors and women who are on fair at best... I am not good at quoting but you get what I am saying...

same thing with dogs...if you don't have a good female but one that comes from a very good line of dogs you breed her once and replace her with a great daughter, cull and cull very hard...breed the next generation and do the same...to me it is better this way than having to long across the land for another prospect. If she is not a good hunting dog but her line produces good to great dogs then she is worthy for one breeding because she should be bred back into her line...

but like i am saying... breed the well bred gyp once and move her on...the idea is to remove the bad genes as often as possible...

the more bad genes that are replaced by good genes, greatly reduces the odds of getting sorry pups...but we must be honest with ourselves and we must take off the rose colored glasses. and call it like it really is...

one bad cross and it goes south. once your line is established you never bring in a 1/2 this or that into your line...if you want to bring in some pit then breed the cur dog with the most grit to a female pit that is slender and leggy with a good handle and then breed the offspring again to a gritty cur(related) with a 1/2 pit/cur pup that looks and hunts right. when down to a quarter pit then cross that one back to the line of dogs but one must cull hard at the beginning because the trash will be there...the idea is to retain the good and discard the bad genes...I would feel comfortable with calling the pups that carry 1/8 pit part of the line and breed them as part of the family...but the qualities that one wanted originally from the pit must be captured into the line of dogs or what would have been the point to go through the truoble...

this is not in the books just my personal opinions and how I have done it in the past but using bmc into the line of mtn curs I had for many years. I did it to gain size and quiet them some on track...

[TexasHogDogs]

Well that is a very hard question to answer it really really is.  I know people that have done this maybe not with a particular gyp but I have know men that have bred four gens deep and have great great dogs threw out all of this .   Then they get a wild hair and they go off and breed to this super bred stud that was really not proven proven just thought are hear say to be proven know what I mean  .  They are so wound up in the dogs great ped that they took the chance and five six years later are cleaning out their yards !  This is after they have done bred the bad gene pool threw out there yard making crosses and also family breedings.  You do family breedings of this type your are threw it may not be till two years later are three but you can bet yo sweet tussy you are done !

Here's the kicker on all of this .

Yes you can breed to this dog to your proven great bred bitch and sure you are going to get some super dogs some great dogs you might not even have a cull in that first breeding .  But here's the catch . You had all these good dogs in that liter so man you are on top of the world so then you breed some of these dogs across your yard well now again you might have a high percentage liter , then you breed those dogs and what happens


All the sudden out of no were !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You Percentages drop boom ten pups 6 culls 4 half ass dogs.  You are saying wow must not have clicked this time .  Then you are breeding to some more stuff from this dogs brother boom ten pups 8 culls 2 half ass dogs.  All across the yard anything and everything with this Super Culls gene pool in there is now starting to react . Now you are saying what the hell and scratching your ass so you try another breeding with some more of this stuff that Super cull is in and bam man ten pups ten culls.

The deal is each time your bred those dogs with that Super Cull in there even tho you were having some good dogs at first  those bad genes were double tripling and so on and so fourth now all the sudden this bad gene pool has over ridden the good genes from  your good dogs and man o man one Super bred Cull screw up four gens of dogs .

How hard would this be to re coupe???

Almost impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Haul you some dirt in there cause you ain't got nuff !

x2...you can breed down or breed up. breeding up is only breeding top of the line males and females of a related family of dogs. the big mistake is outcrossing to an unfamiliar line of dogs. Once the line is bred tight and you bring in a super duper stud that is a 1/4 cat, 1/4 bmc with 1/2 redbone and cross it into your tight line of cur dogs then you just brought in a bunch of trash and you might get a once in a lifetime dog that can't reproduce himself... and the rest of the pups are culls...I reckon that is why we have so many culls.

like Texashogdog said earlier...it is the little things that we should look at...a dog man spends days, months, and sometimes years deciding who to breed too and why. And then critique the hell out of the litter of pups...

If color was a hunting trait everyone would have a good hunting dog...

having said all of that...when you have a long line of nothing but yellow dogs and you cross in an unknown dog that hunts well and he is a brindle dog then how many brindle pups will you have when you cross this dog with the yellow dogs??? could be 4 or could be 10 brindle pups and probable other colors and a few yellow ones...that is the way I see hunting traits but they are not visible...studying the pups and testing in the woods will tell you...but I look at the little things and after a while you can see tell tell signs in a pup if you know your line of dogs...but nothing is a 100% until you see it in the woods.

here is some good logic. a king in the old days told his son...if you want your sons to be brave warriors and leaders and your daughters to be beautiful then find a bride that her brothers are great leaders and warriors and the women to be beautiful...marry even if she is only fair...because she will give you what you want...but do not marry a beatiful girl from a long line of inadequate warriors and women who are on fair at best... I am not good at quoting but you get what I am saying...

same thing with dogs...if you don't have a good female but one that comes from a very good line of dogs you breed her once and replace her with a great daughter, cull and cull very hard...breed the next generation and do the same...to me it is better this way than having to long across the land for another prospect. If she is not a good hunting dog but her line produces good to great dogs then she is worthy for one breeding because she should be bred back into her line...

but like i am saying... breed the well bred gyp once and move her on...the idea is to remove the bad genes as often as possible...

the more bad genes that are replaced by good genes, greatly reduces the odds of getting sorry pups...but we must be honest with ourselves and we must take off the rose colored glasses. and call it like it really is...

one bad cross and it goes south. once your line is established you never bring in a 1/2 this or that into your line...if you want to bring in some pit then breed the cur dog with the most grit to a female pit that is slender and leggy with a good handle and then breed the offspring again to a gritty cur(related) with a 1/2 pit/cur pup that looks and hunts right. when down to a quarter pit then cross that one back to the line of dogs but one must cull hard at the beginning because the trash will be there...the idea is to retain the good and discard the bad genes...I would feel comfortable with calling the pups that carry 1/8 pit part of the line and breed them as part of the family...but the qualities that one wanted originally from the pit must be captured into the line of dogs or what would have been the point to go through the truoble...

this is not in the books just my personal opinions and how I have done it in the past but using bmc into the line of mtn curs I had for many years. I did it to gain size and quiet them some on track...

Thats what I like Rueben the real deal , the real hands on you cant beat it .  Books are great guide lines and teach great things but they will never replace n the flesh experince like a sergun who you gonna let do the surgery the one that just got out of college are the ole sergen that has done it a 1000 times.

[ARhogdogs]

If yall keep on spreading all this knowledge us lil "take it all in and write it down" demons are gonna have the professional guideline to breeding a hellacious line of hog dogs...... Im all ears and a pen and paper..... If only I had a potent gyp or two to crossover.... AHAHAHAHA

[reatj81]

Great info guys!  This is the single most informitive post i have read!   Hope all the young guys read this and take atleast some of it ti heart when breading!   It would have a drastic change on the % of good dogs raised!

[Hog Dog Mike]

The female should because they have a Yand a XY cromisone. The male only has an X cromisone. Good breeders of horses rely on good females.

Bird dog breeders have loads of information concerning this matter. When they run accross a really good producer she is refered to as a "blue hen". One femal (Hot Haunches) produced champions when bred to 6 different males.  No doubt about it she was the one that produced.

However, some dogs just produce better than others. Some don't procuce at all. There have been many multiple champion dogs that could not produce anything.

Look at it like this. Joe Montana was a great QB and won mulitple superbowls. Archie Manning never won much at all.  Montana's son is QB @ Blinn and Archie has procuced two sons that won a total of three superbowls. Which one would you breed to if you wanted to produce a great QB.

[Reuben]

The female should because they have a Yand a XY cromisone. The male only has an X cromisone. Good breeders of horses rely on good females.

XX = female

XY = male

[CURMAN]

First I want to say that I really enjoy reading this site and especially the information on cur dogs. I've hunted for over 55 years and thought I'd heard about everything to do with doctoring and raising dogs but I see there is still more to learn.

I have a couple questions about my favorite dog the BMC. I see that some folks list a dog or pup as a odd percentage of a peticular line (example might be 34% of xyz line). My question is how do they do that? 

Another question is: Can DNA show a line or traits?