culling dogs

[Rmorris27]

How long should i give pups before i cull them? I have 2 pups now that bay really good in the pen and 1 is even starting catch a lil. But when in the woods they dont wanna leave my side. They are 11 months old. Ive even turned them loose on a hog in the woods that was already caught and they ran for about 5 mins and came back. Any tips or suggestions are appreciated.

[waylon-N.E. OK]

Some dogs mature slower than others.

 what breed are they and have you taken them with a broke dog yet? 11 months really ain't very old to me. My cur dogs I had caught there first hogs @ 9 months old, but they were worked with from the day I got them and they went to the woods weekly and were bored of being by my side by the time they were 9 months and were hunting by then

[Rmorris27]

One of them is bmc and the other is black n tan and beagle. I have the litter mate to the bmc and he is doing great already finding and stopping his own hogs. he is also catching smaller ones too.

[Peachcreek]

11 months is still really young give them time.... I have a pup that is 15 months old now and has found me close about a dozen hogs, when i first started hunting him he wouldnt leave my side and as time went on he started getting out more and more. Just the other day he stuck with one over a mile... I thought he would never get better but he has. if your pups show intrest keep hunting them and try to hunt them with good dogs. I say dont even think about culling until they are close to two years old.. I am no pro but have been told some good info from some

[Peachcreek]

the beagle thang changes my mind a little

[got2catchem]

Depending on how many times you've hunted them, I would say, cull. I guess I am different from most, I won't mess with a dog for long if they arent showing a drive to hunt or at least giving me a hint that they may do something. Don't waste your time or anybody else's and get you some other young dogs to hunt. Don't settle, be particular, it may take a awhile, but you will have better hogdogs in the long run. JMO

[tomtom]

 Getting out from under you is either in them or not. My old fashioned b&t will "go away" but it takes her about 5 minutes to make sure she is cool to leave. I tolerate this from her because she would rather go hunt than hang out next to me. Don't confuse range with handling. It is either in them or it isn't. Can't stress that enough. There is a reason dogs are bred for what people want. Or should be. Unless you are a dog whisperer you are at the mercy of what they are pre-determined to do. If you want to hunt a dog with some range get one. If your dog is game but won't leave then...... What good is it? If we all culled with a passion our dogs would be worth a lot more than they are now.

[ARhogdogs]

Depending on how many times you've hunted them, I would say, cull. I guess I am different from most, I won't mess with a dog for long if they arent showing a drive to hunt or at least giving me a hint that they may do something. Don't waste your time or anybody else's and get you some other young dogs to hunt. Don't settle, be particular, it may take a awhile, but you will have better hogdogs in the long run. JMO

I have to agree. I have lil to no patience at all, if they arent out hunting, trashing as pups around 8 to 12 months old then they are gone. If they won't even run a track after you just cut a hog loose in front of em i would definitely get em gone. by 11 months i would think they should at least take it and work it more than 5 min.

[jalston]

dont hunt them at the same time....had the same problem this helped alot....Jim

[Millman]

I will put up with some things while they are young, but being under my feet is unacceptable at any age.

[drew]

man i have a eight mounth old i have been working with about 4 days a week and he was always wonting to stay by me and i was starting to get mad he would bay at a hog as long as i was around if i would try to walk off he would follow  when i went hunting i would road him with my strike dogs an if we would stop he would be looking for me lol so  hear resently if got one of the small hogs i have got and set up some mock hunt with it  an used one of my strike dogs to strike it from the truck with the pup just walking an the first time i did that he didnt track it so i just turned the older dog out and walked slowly behind an followed both of them to the hog i had staked  out and he bayed then i tied my old dog up an i had that hog on a long rope so i would let it run a  little but not let it go and  he loved it all over the pig then i tied the pig back up  walked off he stayed at bay did this two times and now i still have been doing mock hunts but with out my lead dogs just give your dog alittle time but just ask your self how much time are you spending  try to help him along

[Bryant]

To know what to expect (and when) from a pup, you really have to know what you're working with.  I'll have a little more patience with a pup born from a line of dogs known to start a little late than I would others.  That being said, I don't have a lot of patience with any of them and they usually don't get a whole bunch of chances to keep my attention.

The problem I see most often isn't necessarily the dogs fault....especially with young people who are new to dogs and simply don't know better.  I'll be the first to admit a small puppy is real hard to keep hands off of, but I'm a *FIRM* believer that you'll make a 1000% better dog if you don't handle them a lot before you start hunting them.  My pups aren't typically skittish, but before they're a year old I seldom put a hand on them either.  When I first start hauling them to the woods, they can be a little wild...sometimes hard to catch, but I RARELY have trouble with a pup that won't leave out and run through the woods.  Reason being is because they're not hanging around looking for my affection or my lead.

You get those kind of pups hunting and going the way you like, then can come the time to work the handle on them.  Besides, you spend a lot of time working handle on a dog that doesn't make the grade and that's just more time wasted.

[drew]

i know what your saying i dont mess with mine unless the are going hunting they have a job to do they see me when they are feed thats about it but every dog isnt the same we all know that i have herd more then one guy say they dont mess with them until a year me personly seven eight mounths  reason  being for me hell mosst dogs dont make a dog until there two

[tomtom]

 I don't agree that petting/handling affects drive. If it does, I believe, you have the wrong pup. Also, I don't want a pain in the butt anymore. Too often people confuse gamey/driven with pain in the butt. So they breed pain in the butt to pain in the butt. Then you get a bunch of little pains who are affected by handling and the hunt wasnt really there to begin with.

[drew]

yep they either got it or dont

[Bryant]

I don't agree that petting/handling affects drive.

I didn't say it affects drive, but I do believe it effects a dogs independance.  This is not something I just think...I have observed it MANY times over the years both with dogs I've raised (and screwed up) myself and pups from the same litters that go to people who handle them differently.

Think of it like this.  I know someone who seldom puts their catchdog on a lead.  They can walk the dog 20 yards from a bay, stand there looking at the hog and until the command is given that dog won't go.  Doesn't mean the dog is any less driven, just means it's been trained as such.  Now take a puppy and pet it, play with it and let it think it is okay and proper to stay near you for the first year of it's life.  Now at a year old you take same dog, drop it in the woods and guess what it does.  What you've done even unknowingly is train that dog to stay close.  Doesn't mean it's any less driven, just that it's been conditioned to act the way it is and not necessarily the dogs fault.  Now someone with enough patience may undo what has been accidentally done, but me personally I would rather just not create the issue than have to deal with it later.

As for having the wrong pups, I've seen VERY few good solid lines of dogs that consistantly have the go-yonder hunt that I require in my dogs yet almost any dog can be trained to handle.  I think I'll stick with the hunt.

Again, just my personal observations of what I've seen and done over the years.

[TShelly]

I don't agree that petting/handling affects drive.

I didn't say it affects drive, but I do believe it effects a dogs independance.  This is not something I just think...I have observed it MANY times over the years both with dogs I've raised (and screwed up) myself and pups from the same litters that go to people who handle them differently.

Think of it like this.  I know someone who seldom puts their catchdog on a lead.  They can walk the dog 20 yards from a bay, stand there looking at the hog and until the command is given that dog won't go.  Doesn't mean the dog is any less driven, just means it's been trained as such.  Now take a puppy and pet it, play with it and let it think it is okay and proper to stay near you for the first year of it's life.  Now at a year old you take same dog, drop it in the woods and guess what it does.  What you've done even unknowingly is train that dog to stay close.  Doesn't mean it's any less driven, just that it's been conditioned to act the way it is and not necessarily the dogs fault.  Now someone with enough patience may undo what has been accidentally done, but me personally I would rather just not create the issue than have to deal with it later.

As for having the wrong pups, I've seen VERY few good solid lines of dogs that consistantly have the go-yonder hunt that I require in my dogs yet almost any dog can be trained to handle.  I think I'll stick with the hunt.

Again, just my personal observations of what I've seen and done over the years.

All the old timers I've met and hunt with think the same principlal when it comes to pups.

First make it a hog dog, then make it a pet!! They should know their job first and you as the person that helps them accomplishing their goal of catching hogs

[tomtom]

 Bryant, I know you didn't write that, and I figured my post would be read that way. I just wanted to add my experience on the topic as well. I stayed in trouble as a boy for petting the younger hounds while in the field. Staying inside a rock's throw is frustrating for a man who runs foxhounds and their crosses. I have seen enough of them to develop the opinion that if they have the go-power to start with, keeping them in the house isn't going to make much of a difference. I think the other problem that usually goes with too much handling is lack of free time in the woods for the pup.

[jagdtank]

I have seen dogs that didnt hunt coon until 3 and turn into some of the best dogs. I like the drive being there from the start though. On a side note have you ever thought about all the worthless dogs you have to go through to get one decent one and then think about all the guys you know who have ten or twelve that all suck. coon dogs hog dogs bird dogs its all the same thing 90 suck two dont. its all because every one is crossing mutts. Thats why I like jagds they may be small they may be open or semi open they may not have the nose of the hound they may be hard to break off trash, but I can nearly guarantee I pay for a dog that it will hunt like a maniac. maybe some guys with curs or some other breed should start a club that does performance testing  before being certified to breed a few years down the road and you will reverse the trend its to hard to count on bloodlines with so many people breeding the typical hunting breeds its to hard to pay money for a dog and lose the investment for most to stay honest. the crappers always get passed on and most try to breed them to a better dog hoping to get better pups and all that happens is the good dogs gets its good genetics dubbed down. They test the jagds in europe before being certified to breed and it has kept building better dogs because they all have the drive to begin with. I never bay penned my jagd to train him I took his but to the woods at six months with an old fiest to help guess who found the pigs? It wasn't the fiest and the first pig he found he tracked about four hundred yrds and put teeth to it. It was squeeling about two seconds after he barked He killed it I have the video to prove it. My dog is not superman hes just a typical dog from a good program that works. If it works with jagds it will work with anything else. Just a thought but I bet you hard core doggers know whos got the good ones and if you could get a few of them on board  you would have a start. dont line breed at first get the good foundation bred dogs that are superman and mix em up for a while until you get a couple producing consistently good dogs. natural instinct testing before being certified a breeder once your club gets know as the authority on guaranteed to hunt dogs No one will want one not out of certified dogs. just an opinion but It would be nice to know where to get one that will hunt for sure. I get attached to my dogs it is sad to have to get rid of em because they suck. especially after you paid good money for em. The world has plenty of mutts that get dumped and end up in the pound. It is best to cull it,may not be best for the one being culled but its best for the breeds and best for others who have to pay good money for a dog that sucks and feed it just so some guy dont have to own up that his dog is a mutt.You dont mistreat a dog that has what it takes.

[Rmorris27]

Thanks for all the info. it is appreciated. I think im gonna give em a lil longer to see how they act. i was just curious because i have 2 of the same litter and the 1 brother is doing great so far and he hasnt seemed to pick it up yet.