Top knotch dogs come from lesser parents?

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Was reading some posts from a breeding and genetic topic.
A point that was brought up on breeding top knotch dogs was the parents to those type dogs were almost always lesser of a dog than what they spawned and that should be something to consider when making breeding decisions. Basically dont take your best two line dogs and attempt to cross when you should try two lesser dogs.

Not a genealogist but from experience would have to disagree.  Actually completely disagree. All the top performers had parents that were just as good or even sometimes better from everything I have delt with.
Never once have I bred a top knotch line dog from parents that didn't have closely qualifying traits and in their own way were lesser.

Is there great dogs out there that came from no names....of course..But in a breeding of a continued line of dogs to breed a lesser dog to another lesser dog in the expectations of getting grade A stuff?  Sorry just dont comprehend. 

Some of you gene pool fanatics please break this idea down to us and let's have a friendly discussion on why this would or wouldn't be the way to go.


I say dont breed two chickens together attempting to get a duck...unless your a quack.. (sorry that was cheesey)  Haha.
But you get the picture.

Enjoy.

[chads7376]

Agree YBM. Just trying to find a stud for my best gyp now.

[Reuben]

I believe that inbreeding and line breeding will ge you there faster...but only breed the very best...but I also believe that over a few generations the dogs can actually produce better and for sure a higher percentage of good to great dogs...over time you can get more grit, more range, better nose than previous generations...to me it all starts with testing the pups at a young age for nose which includes, winding and trailing...then comes testing for natural ranging out and then testing for the quality of the pup baying...also look at what ages the pups actually start hunting and then see what kind of bottom and stick each pup has and at what age the pups develop the range to go all the way...all this should be taken into consideration as to who becomes the breeders...it is all about selecting the right pups/dogs for breeding...it is like a point system to grade each pup... but we also look at conformation...got to have the right tools to perform well...and smarts to know where to look for game... and to figure out how to find the exit track quickly by cutting and slashing/drifting on the track...

[Reuben]

I believe that inbreeding and line breeding will get you there faster...but only breed the very best...but I also believe that over a few generations the dogs can actually produce better and for sure a higher percentage of good to great dogs...over time you can get more grit, more range, better nose than previous generations...to me it all starts with testing the pups at a young age for nose which includes, winding and trailing...then comes testing for natural ranging out and then testing for the quality of the pup baying...also look at what ages the pups actually start hunting and then see what kind of bottom and stick each pup has and at what age the pups develop the range to go all the way...all this should be taken into consideration as to who becomes the breeders...it is all about selecting the right pups/dogs for breeding...it is like a point system to grade each pup... but we also look at conformation...got to have the right tools to perform well...and smarts to know where to look for game... and to figure out how to find the exit track quickly by cutting and slashing/drifting on the track...

the goal is to get a higher percentage of good pups per litter and to improve the quality of the dogs with each generation...

I want to see natural ability in the pups to wind, trail, find, and stop a hog...a dog that will find a hog if there is a hog in the woods to be found...I want the dog to hunt with me and me not having to hunt for the dog each time I turn it out...I want the dog to make quarter mile loops in each direction and no more than that...if I don't see the dog looping I know it is on a track or the dog is bayed... and I don't want the dog to quit the track if at all possible...all of these traits come into play when selecting a breeder...

but the bottom line is selecting pups with natural instincts/ability...one that does not require much training...simply exposing it to what we want and the dog just knows what to do instinctively with minimal training...

If I have to spend a lot of time training and having to use the e collar too often and too much...then I expect to do the same with the offspring...if it takes 3 years for the dog to turn on...then I can expect the same with the offspring...so why do it??? especially when we can use the naturals for breeding...


but I will not hesitate to breed to an average to slightly below average dog from this type of line bred hunting dogs any day... before I would consider breeding to a top notch dog from less than average breeding...

but i would only do it once just to get me out of a bind if I got into a bind...

[Corey]

I'd like to think the scenario you mention would be a case of genotype vs phenotype. I am thinking you would be getting a superior offspring by way of combining or lining up grandparents. I hope it is not meant to take random inferior dogs and produce end all, beat all offspring. While not impossible, very not likely.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

The way the post was interpreted and granted....Internet interpretation..... was that it would be a better choice to bypass a top performing female line gyp and go with a lesser performing line gyp to breed to. Vice versa with the stud dog.

I can say have I done it in the past for experiment purposes....Yes

Did that type cross throw a top notch performer....No...I got exactly what I bred....mediocre pups..just like both parents. 
My standpoint has always stayed the same on breeding.

Cross the best to the best and your gonna hit paydirt. Anything else and your just pumping out pups for the wrong reasons.

I believe in trialing each individual dog on performance to make sure they have what it takes to cut it as a solid hog dog way before thinking of throwing them into a brood pen.

To many folks out there in the puppy factory biz have got the breed to anything gyp just because she is a line dog covered.
Looking at a unknown puppy. First question is always...how to both parents work?  Biggest turn off to me personally is......she is a good line gyp................AND..what does she do? Saw to many LINE GYPS that are born culls and should have been CULLED.

Sorry guys still calling BS on this theory.  Convince Me! 

[Dexter]

I believe that inbreeding and line breeding will get you there faster...but only breed the very best...but I also believe that over a few generations the dogs can actually produce better and for sure a higher percentage of good to great dogs...over time you can get more grit, more range, better nose than previous generations...to me it all starts with testing the pups at a young age for nose which includes, winding and trailing...then comes testing for natural ranging out and then testing for the quality of the pup baying...also look at what ages the pups actually start hunting and then see what kind of bottom and stick each pup has and at what age the pups develop the range to go all the way...all this should be taken into consideration as to who becomes the breeders...it is all about selecting the right pups/dogs for breeding...it is like a point system to grade each pup... but we also look at conformation...got to have the right tools to perform well...and smarts to know where to look for game... and to figure out how to find the exit track quickly by cutting and slashing/drifting on the track...

the goal is to get a higher percentage of good pups per litter and to improve the quality of the dogs with each generation...

I want to see natural ability in the pups to wind, trail, find, and stop a hog...a dog that will find a hog if there is a hog in the woods to be found...I want the dog to hunt with me and me not having to hunt for the dog each time I turn it out...I want the dog to make quarter mile loops in each direction and no more than that...if I don't see the dog looping I know it is on a track or the dog is bayed... and I don't want the dog to quit the track if at all possible...all of these traits come into play when selecting a breeder...

but the bottom line is selecting pups with natural instincts/ability...one that does not require much training...simply exposing it to what we want and the dog just knows what to do instinctively with minimal training...

If I have to spend a lot of time training and having to use the e collar too often and too much...then I expect to do the same with the offspring...if it takes 3 years for the dog to turn on...then I can expect the same with the offspring...so why do it??? especially when we can use the naturals for breeding...


but I will not hesitate to breed to an average to slightly below average dog from this type of line bred hunting dogs any day... before I would consider breeding to a top notch dog from less than average breeding...

but i would only do it once just to get me out of a bind if I got into a bind...

X2
Well said
Dexter

[Bar W]

I liken genetic manipulation in dog breeding to farming, in that you get out what you put in, you can't plant field corn and expect to harvest grade A sweet corn. Now if you take the sweetest field corn and plant from that continuously year after year you'll get sweeter corn in the end. Same with dogs but it takes longer with a higher cull rate. I just can't see breeding a mediocre dog for an out cross. Doesn't make sense.

[Reuben]

I liken genetic manipulation in dog breeding to farming, in that you get out what you put in, you can't plant field corn and expect to harvest grade A sweet corn. Now if you take the sweetest field corn and plant from that continuously year after year you'll get sweeter corn in the end. Same with dogs but it takes longer with a higher cull rate. I just can't see breeding a mediocre dog for an out cross. Doesn't make sense.

x2...but I would rather breed to a below average dog from a long line of top hog dogs one time... and then select hard from that litter and to get me back on track that way...than to breed to a top notch dog that was a fluke ( a dog that comes from a long line of what I perceive to be average dogs)...because that breeding is a major setback to the program even though the selection process is a good one...

but as for me I already have been down this road once and now I am only doing it for a few good dogs...I bred a gritty mtn cur that is semi open to a total silent male from another breed...but the line is tight and known for hard hunting. the parker curs also have quite a bit of mtn cur in them but they are silent and already established as a breed...I will then breed a few pups from this cross back to the mtn cur...I want to retain grit, hunt, and hoping to silence the mtn cur a little when on track...also plan to have 2 or 3 mtn cur with about 1/4 pit...I know I will have culls but will do my best to retain the right pups...I am not going to turn over dogs quickly to clean up the gene pool...only interested in getting a few good dogs and slowly moving in the right direction but only when I need a replaement or two...

I am not saying this is the right way or the only way but this is how I see it and believe it is the best way for me...

[Reuben]

OK YBM...let's here your detailed version...  mine is like a broken record...so your methods will be much appreciated...from what I can tell and hear is that you have some nice hunting dogs and I can see from the pics that they all tend to look alike, and they are put together nicely as well... 

[halfbreed]

i'll just throw this out there .  with an established line you have all sorts of variables . now considering the [ so so ] good dog is it a result of the line or a not so great owner . i know the dogs i've kept off my line are silent swift and deadly but some on other yards are just so so dogs [ good but not great  ] now i've been doggin many years and the beginners that have gotten pups are just that beginners . so is it the dogs or the owner . could i not take a gyp back that don't hunt the greatest and breed to my stud and get exeptional dogs ? well i'm sure i could . too many variables when breeding dogs to say you can only breed to outstanding dogs to get outstanding dogs . like forrest gumps momma said , life is like a box o chocolates    when we quit experimenting with breeding we fall behind or just come to a complete halt .

[Reuben]

HalfBreed, I agree with this...an inexperienced handler can take a dog with lot's of potential and about ruin the dog especially if the dog is a little on the shy side, or, at the minimum the dog will not hunt to it's potential...and a good and experienced handler can take the same dog and make it shine...

when I evaluate a pup or dog... I try to factor in all the possibilities including how much exposure/experience the dog has  hunting, as well as the type of dog handling it has received...also for me, style of hunting is a big factor in evaluating the pup/dog.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Nah no voodoo or scientific analogies here. Lol.
I am just a firm believer on straightforward breeding best to best to accomplish the goal of passing any hereditary gene that is desired in a certain line of dogs.

Second best dogs are just that second. They are lacking in some way shape or form and thus the reason they are not number 1 dogs on your yard. A little saying I have went by was. (always breed to something as good or better than what you have or you are regressing).  The common goal is to maintain desired traits and have something worthy and capable of reproducing those traits.

The actual question to this topic that I just cannot rationalize is .....reputable breeders of line dogs that would pass up their best two dogs to cross a second best string and attempt to accomplish a higher quality dog.

I am not in any way a gene guru...Haha never even heard of a line breeding calculator or how to figure a percent of a percent of a decimal in regards to speaking of dogs breeding before getting my internet edjumacation. 

But so far out of hundreds of dogs. The best of the best were always thrown from the best bred back to the best.

Its just hard to justify in my mind what I have seen work repeatedly and what did not.

That's the reason for the post is I wanted to see the breakdown on everyone's point of view to see if there was another angle that I just wasn't seeing.

As for the training issue with other folks ..totally agree....that is a main reason I dont sell pups.

And yep Rueben as you can tell I am a stickler for uniformity.  Lol
Perty easy....it comes out Yeller with a blackmouth or it gets culled immediately or a few pale faces go to some close friends.
Why not have the cake and eat it too. 

Good discussion boys am enjoying the angles and interpretations.

[Reuben]

Second best dogs are just that second. They are lacking in some way shape or form and thus the reason they are not number 1 dogs on your yard. A little saying I have went by was. (always breed to something as good or better than what you have or you are regressing).  The common goal is to maintain desired traits and have something worthy and capable of reproducing those traits.

The actual question to this topic that I just cannot rationalize is .....reputable breeders of line dogs that would pass up their best two dogs to cross a second best string and attempt to accomplish a higher quality dog.

I am not in any way a gene guru...Haha never even heard of a line breeding calculator or how to figure a percent of a percent of a decimal in regards to speaking of dogs breeding before getting my internet edjumacation. 


Good discussion boys am enjoying the angles and interpretations.

I agree...second best dogs are just that...but one time I lost my best female I had at the time and I didn't have a choice but to breed to a small female, about 35 pounds and she was of one of the colors I didn't like...but as a pup she had shown lots of range and hustle by 4 months old...did this with her siblings or alone, it didn't matter to her... and she was hunting striking at a young age...I didn't like her, she was a cull to me so she was given away...long story short I got her back for one breeding and the smallest pup from the litter was 45 pounds of hard hunting, very rough hog dog...all the pups kept were basicly the same but larger dogs...a pretty good cross but her grandchildren were probably the best litter I produced...and her 45 pound daughter I called FLY (the runt)was probably the best female I ever owned...I had to keep her on leash until we were ready to hunt...because she was going to where the hogs were...with or without us...but too much drive/hunt can be bad in real hot and humid weather conditions...

but I totally agree...best to the best is always best...and because I am not a gene guru my saying has been this...since I do not understand genetics then the best policy is to breed related but only the best to the best...because the best defense is a great offense...

[jagdtank]

my dad was a big coon hound guru he took it to a extreme all my growing up years. My uncle had some awesome money dogs. my dad would study genealogy of high power dogs and at the time knew alot of their genealogys from memory. I know i may be over simplifying it but he always said the best dogs out their were the result of two really good line bred dogs that were out crossed. He must have been right because we had some bad to the bone dogs by the time i was in my teens. A couple litters everyone was a top notch dog on coon. One male treed 70 in one season and was stolen a few days after the hides were sold. His mother was as my dad says " the finest dog I have ever seen in my life,She had everything" Line bred for several generations then outcrossed to another line bred.

[jdt]

sometimes a topnotch dog wont reproduce the same , sometimes a second rate dog will reproduce better than itsself . sometimes a certain cross how ever good it may look to be just don't work .

i'm still of the thought breed the best to the best and hope for the best . when you make an exceptionally good cross keep making that cross .

[Reuben]

lets just make believe that the yellow color was a trait...
 
if hunting traits were a color all dogs would be that color and all would hunt...if it were the yellow color the variation would be from light yellow to dark yellow as to how much hunt a dog had...if darker yellow meant the best hunting trait then all dogs would be dark yellow...that explains a lot about the yeller dogs...  JK, JK YBM... 

so breeding better hunting dogs would be easy (unless you are color blind  ) because it is visual and no breeding and hunting experience would be needed...

Well I had a very good kemmer gyp and I bred her to a yellow dog of a different breed and all 10 or 11 pups came out different shades of yellow brindle... I called Robert Kemmer who was the man behind the creation of the Kemmer mtn cur and he said anytime a kemmer was bred to another breed of yellow dogs the pups would come out brindle...and he said the same would happen when the kemmer was bred to another yellow mtn cur of a different strain...but there is a reason for this...a possibility is that some yellow dogs are genetically yellow brindle even though they appear to be yellow...but the brindling is faded out to match the yellow color in yellow dogs...so once the dog is outcrossed the brindle shows up in the pups...I read that a long time ago and that is how I understood it...but I was confused by the time I finished reading that...  so not saying it is right but something to think about...

So to me it is very possible that hunting traits can and will play the same type of tricks...that is probably one reason we have so many culls out there...

[Shotgun66]

So we are all looking for THAT dog! One that can aquire scent, diagnose the track, locate, and bay. (Sorry catch dog fanatics) My question is can you breed 2 good dogs that possess traits that complimet one another's weaknesses to create THAT dog.  For example, can you cover a gyp who possesses the ability to diagnose a track and locate with a stud dog that has a cold nose and stick to create THAT dog. Will the best traits of both parents be expressed in their offspring? Experince tells me that if you have 2 good Walker dogs you can do this to create a good coon dog. My minimal hog dogging experience tells me you need a pack of specialists to get it done. 

[Reuben]

shotgun66...might not be very good examples but we shouldn't breed an undershot dog with an overshot dog to get perfect teeth...or a roached back dog to a sway back dog to get a good topline...

so I say breed a dog that is what you believe to be having the correct trait to one that might be lacking in that trait...but what if the bad trait is dominant???

just a few things to think about...

[Shotgun66]

Great point Rueben. Thanks for the insight. Tryin to learn this hog dog business. Not fond of the spotted dogs?