Top knotch dogs come from lesser parents?

[Bryant]

Poor approach to breeding in my opinion.  I've heard of people who use the lesser dogs for their brood stock and just hunt the best.  Bad business plan if you ask me and I can't see that type of program lasting more than a couple generations at best before the whole bunch will need culling.

Starting with and continuing to breed the absolute best while keeping them as closely related as possible is the only way to roll.

I get irritated with those that think "linebred" is some term that simply means better dogs.  Even done correctly, linebreeding is nothing more than a tool used to produce CONSISTANT dogs....meaning consistant with the ones you STARTED with.  Take some mediocre dogs and linebreed them to beat all heck and you're not going to end up with anything more than a bunch of mediocre dogs that are NOW RELATED.  Everyone with a viable linebreeding program can tell you the dog their line strives to reproduce...and with a little luck, occasionally you may get one that's even better.  The major IMPROVEMENTS in the line usually come with a VERY careful outcross which is then brought back in tight.

[Reuben]

Poor approach to breeding in my opinion.  I've heard of people who use the lesser dogs for their brood stock and just hunt the best.  Bad business plan if you ask me and I can't see that type of program lasting more than a couple generations at best before the whole bunch will need culling.

Starting with and continuing to breed the absolute best while keeping them as closely related as possible is the only way to roll.

I get irritated with those that think "linebred" is some term that simply means better dogs.  Even done correctly, linebreeding is nothing more than a tool used to produce CONSISTANT dogs....meaning consistant with the ones you STARTED with.  Take some mediocre dogs and linebreed them to beat all heck and you're not going to end up with anything more than a bunch of mediocre dogs that are NOW RELATED.  Everyone with a viable linebreeding program can tell you the dog their line strives to reproduce...and with a little luck, occasionally you may get one that's even better.  The major IMPROVEMENTS in the line usually come with a VERY careful outcross which is then brought back in tight.

I agree...

I remember a well known dog man that wrote several books on breeding, hunting, and also had a mail order dog supply catalog...he used to sell beagle pups and his advertisement used to say take any pup or pups and just leave me one...
It took me a while to figure out why he did this...it could only be 1 of 2 reasons or both...he was saying that his dogs are so much alike that it doesn't matter which one he keeps for breeding or for hunting....or that he is that good of a trainer...

to me, it should be a long process as to which pup is kept for hunting and breeding...and then at 1.5 years old I just might decide that he is not worthy of breeding...I spend most of my time on observing and evaluating the pro's and cons before I make a decision...and I believe that anyone who wants to breed better dogs should give it a lot of thought...

[TShelly]

Poor approach to breeding in my opinion.  I've heard of people who use the lesser dogs for their brood stock and just hunt the best.  Bad business plan if you ask me and I can't see that type of program lasting more than a couple generations at best before the whole bunch will need culling.

Starting with and continuing to breed the absolute best while keeping them as closely related as possible is the only way to roll.

I get irritated with those that think "linebred" is some term that simply means better dogs.  Even done correctly, linebreeding is nothing more than a tool used to produce CONSISTANT dogs....meaning consistant with the ones you STARTED with.  Take some mediocre dogs and linebreed them to beat all heck and you're not going to end up with anything more than a bunch of mediocre dogs that are NOW RELATED.  Everyone with a viable linebreeding program can tell you the dog their line strives to reproduce...and with a little luck, occasionally you may get one that's even better.  The major IMPROVEMENTS in the line usually come with a VERY careful outcross which is then brought back in tight.

X 10! I think 80-90% of the people breeding dogs shouldn't be!! The dogs we have the pleasure of hunting are from long lines of old timers crossing "best dog" x "best dog"... Papers, color and any other menial attribute weren't considered.

It's alarming to see the rate at which people are breeding mediocre dogs and calling them hog dogs.

YBM.. I somewhat will agree with a lesser dog producing those bada$$ type dogs... But that lesser dog had better be bred by extremely great/top notch dogs

[Reuben]

Top knotch dogs come from lesser parents?

A wise king once said to his son...IT IS BETTER TO MARRY A FAIR MAIDEN FROM A GREAT FAMILY THAT HAS PRODUCED MANY BEAUTIFUL MAIDENS AND FEARLESS WARRIORS THAT HAVE LEAD ARMIES INTO BATTLE... THAN TO MARRY A BEAUTIFUL MAIDEN FROM A LESSER FAMILY THAT HAS NEITHER BEAUTIFUL MAIDENS NOR FEARLESS WARRIORS...

The same can be said about horses, dogs, cats etc. etc.

[drew]

i agree with that

[uglydog]

Here is the thinh that lesser dog should only be a close relative, bred once, elvaluate pups and culled herself if the pups arent better than ! Because ONLY a LOOSER would BE KENNEL BLIND AND KEEP BREEDING JUST BECAUSE ITS RELATED, and not proven to be a PROVEN PRODUCER AT THIS POINT.

OTHERWISE I AM ON YELLOW BLACK MASK SIDE OF THIS ARGUEMENT.

ONLY REASON I WOULD bree to the lesser dog is if all other genetics were lost and the "Only" chance to recover that blood was to breed to the lesser dog. Recently in alot of my research I have seen alot of kennels putting up bitches and use them ONLY as brood stock, that dog never been in the woods a day in its life and produces many litters. Reguadless if that dogs sister was top shelp that bitch may not be throwing the "top Notch" gene, and all those pups and the grandpups have lost that gene forever, simply surviving off of a reputation that no longer is or will ever be againwithour carefull breeding//TESTING and dedication by very passionate individuals that are in in for love of the dog and not for the $dollar$.

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

Rolling back to the point on breeding strong line traits back over to a dog with similar weaker traits but strong in other departments. 

I have heard this question posed alot.

(I have a long range cold nose dog, but I would like him to be more gritty) 
Can I breed a gritty short range dog back to it and correct the problem?

Well........I figure that cross will do one thing.

More than likely lose both traits that you want to combine. 
Probably end up with a short to med range dog that has a mediocre nose and will be less gritty than desired even if more than your original non gritty dog.

Seems to me you would be countering and basically speaking ...neutralizing ....your desired traits against each other.

Why dont you breed a long range, cold nosed, non gritty back to another long ranged, cold nosed, semi gritty or more if available. This way you double your long range, cold nose genes and add onto the grit ...gradually over several crosses.
The end result hopefully speaking will be long range, cold nosed and grittier than your previous cross? Isn't that the goal to begin with? 

Make sense to anyone or do I have my armadillo hat on again? Lol 

[Reuben]

I am on YBM side also...but like I have always said...best to the best and keep them related...but if necessary bred to the second best one time and then choose carefully from the offspring of that cross...that breeding is way better than a total outcross no matter how good the dog...that is if you think highly of your strain...

I have given an example of breeding a dog with a strong back line with a dog with a sway back to improve the dog and to not breed a sway back to a roach back dog...because now you will have 2 bad traits and not just one...but it is better to breed dogs that have good toplines...but sometimes it is the best option to breed out one bad trait when all other traits are of the best...

My beliefs about breeding dogs have never changed since the first time I joined ethd...except for a new theory I developed about a month or 2 ago...I now believe that hunting traits can improve just from selecting from your own line/strain of dogs...we can shop around and bring a new dog in to improve on a trait but if you already have very good dogs you can actually get better...as the breeders are selected it is possible to get more hunt and more grit if you are breeding to improve those traits...I now believe that hunting traits can be a combination of several genes that act as one gene in a chromosome...so if my theory is right then these genes can be rearranged so that the dog can be a better hunter or not depending on the arrangement...

The theory about improvement from an intensely linebred line of dogs came about from reading an article on a long haired breed of dogs...long hair is a recessive trait...and over a period of time when breeding this breed of dogs the hair keeps getting longer...so they would periodically breed a dog of shorter hair to get the length back to meet the standard...I found this article when I was looking to find some information on whether or not if hunting traits were dominant or recessive...never found any info on that subject...and when I bred the mtn cur for over 15 years, the over all hunting traits I was breeding for were improving not only in higher percentages of good dogs but was getting cur dogs that were extra rough, dogs that hunted extra hard and the ability to find game improved...all from just selecting the best and only breeding the very best from the same line dogs...

[halfbreed]

just in a nutshell breeding is a crapshoot . you can breed best to best and still git snakeyes and you can breed good to good and roll sevens and breed best to worst and roll elevens     it's knowing what to look for in the offspring that matters most . best to best and hope the best is able to pass on the genes . i've seen many many good bred world beaters that never threw a decent pup . and i've seen many well bred never hunted bitches throw some of the best pups around . you just breed your dogs and hope it clicks and if it don't well begin again . myself i love the breeding game don't do it for the money ain't never got close to making a profit . but i love expirementing and trying differant crosses and assorted levels of cur and hound . allways looking to improve comes from being a perfectionist . never be afraid of a cross could be the next best thing going . and hell 22 shells don't cost that much anyway . you just have to be man or woeman enough to admit defeat when it don't work and not try to pass em off as world beaters cause they outta yo best dogs .

[uglydog]

Well I am definitely not picking at anybody here on ETHD, it just coincidence that this paralleled a bunch of recent conversation where I was trying to decide where I stood on a side of breeding a particular dog that I felt that was not "proven"

[halfbreed]

no i didn't take any thing by it . just makeing a statement on my observations and methods of breeding . my ol cat gyp i broke from hunting hogs and baying cattle when she was 4 monthe old . being proven in the woods ain't all it's cracked up to be it's being proven in the brood pen is where it's at as far as passing on genes and traits . basically cause like iv'e allways said too many variables in hunting dogs different owners differant styles amout of woods time ect. ect. coon huntin rabbit and squirrel hunting allows a man to take his time and look at a dog for years before breeding . this hog hunting game is way differant too many things might happen before you make up your mind to breed a couple dogs . you got to be willing to go for it and roll the dice . i don't know maybe being an ol rooster man helped me to learn to take a chance on breeding . i would never think of testing an unproven cock that i paid a couple thousand dollars for i let the offspring do the talking . and if it don't work eat them  an start over . as far as genetics go we are still learning more every day . i say breed the gyp and see what you get you could get lucky and be glad you did .

[uglydog]

yeah but but gotta be bad karma to eat the dogs! lol!!!!!

[Reuben]

I get out ran several times and then I start thinking about maybe need to breed loose baying dogs...then I see loose baying dogs that can't stop a hog and then I start thinking about needing to breed rough dogs...it can get complicated... 

[TexasHogDogs]

Its not a very good practice for people who are really not major breeders of dogs as far as breeding a lesser dog to get better dogs . If you are just a novice breeder it will never work out in the long run the line will suffer and fall apart but if you are a experienced breeder of a line for years on years end and know your dogs inside and out here is what happens are how I have seen it happen.

This is hard to explain in just a few words . If you have bred dogs for years and years and  you have a line of dogs that you have heavy line bred and then inbred some to keep it right . You have high percentage liters but in these liters of great tight bred and even some inbred you get these liters of dogs, lets say you got a liter of 8 and 6 of them are of the highest quality champion material then you have one that is a sure nuff cull , then you have one left and he is just a even dog noting special noting major but just average at everything he does no super star might show some heavy line bred
defects on the outside as well as not having the speed staminia that all the others do.

What we experinced over the years and what we figured has happened in this liter of dogs is this.  The six super stars got the right about of genes from each dog and came out with top vigor then you had one that was just a cull got the bad genes now you got this one that is just a ole average brother are sister he are she shows they might have taken some of the defects from being bred so tight this will show up and tells you something . Well what has happen is this this ole average dog in reality, Am sure some remember me talking about paper is good for wiping your ass and real life well this is real life in our findings this dog here old Joe took the all of the heavy family gene pool he ended up being the one that took all the inbred genes the heavy line bred genes and this is why he is slow he don't show to be a super star he is just the old average bro are sister in this liter but what happen is since he took all of the great family genes from this breeding he is now equipped to be a breeding fool he is pre potent when he touches a bitch he will produce top notch dogs even tho he is not a top notch dog himself his gene pool is pure he took all the family gene pool and this is why he is just a average performer and this is why he is a pre potent breeding machine !  All the defects he has will not be in his pups when you now cross this dog but he is the one carrying all the genes that people are trying to capture but end up culling just because he is not a super star like his bros were .  All your hard work is in this one dog what did you expect after years of all this heavy breeding he is suppose to look like he does and perform like he does noting due to him but the way you compacted his gene pool over the years in all reality this is the dog your looking for to be the top notch producer of dogs its not his super star bro are sisters its the ugly duckling that everybody passes up most the time !  If people have not bred that many dogs are liters of dogs and seen this are experinced it then this is why people cannot understand !

This all has to come from hands on experience this don't come from a book you can only learn this threw breeding many many many liters of dogs and culling them and watching learning and getting a big ass head ache studying all of this . 

This is why old average Joe is now a producing champion and just a average dog himself he is prepotent because of his gene pool and the only one in the liter that took it , now this don't work in just somebody nick picking breeding this comes from true heavy bred lines of dogs !  In all of real life this dog is not suppose to be pretty according to his tight hard bred linage and people look for just the oppsite they want a pretty dog a super star dog with all the bells and whistles and most the time this is not how it works in real life in books maybe but not in real life !

If Am looking for a real producer of dogs and I had a choice between bros and these dogs come from a sure nuff bone a fide breeder of champion dogs am looking for the ugly duckling because he looks just like his ped says he should look and then I know he is packing a hell of a gun on him !

Pretty dont mean Jack !

[TexasHogDogs]

Being a super star is one thing but being a producer and a producer of champions is a totally different ball game !

If you got one dog that is both then it wont be long and you will a legend in your time !

Thats why you dont see to many Legends !

[TexasHogDogs]

Adding to this.

The normal person's brain is not wired to understand all of this does that mean they are dumb in no way.  The great breeders think outside the ordinary !  What it means is it takes years and years of breeding to understand all of this .  Like some of the Ole time hound breeders .  The Plott's,  The Weems,  people who have lived and breathed dogs all there life's and lived in the great era of time.  They know this but its not something that is advertised in the news paper are these open message boards.  The old Pit breeders knew this Earl Tudor, Wallace, Hemphill, Trahan, Corvino they all knew this but it took years and years to rewire their brains to understand this it took hands on eye ball to eye ball experience to see this and to understand this then it took even more to apply it .

The normal persons brain is wired to think just the opposite they thinks it takes perfect confirmation , the perfect nose , the perfect speed , the perfect stamina to make and become the perfect stud are brood dog.  This is far from the truth of the matter a dog should look like his pedigree in all reality and if you can learn to pick and choose accordingly then you are a rare man .  I can understand how people want to see the perfect dog with all the bells and whistles to be the one it all seems logical and of course there are some but they are few and far between the true perfect specimen that can become the pre potent touch a bitch dog and produce 10 out of 10 liters .


These old men that have bred dogs for some 40-50 yrs has been threw all of this but do you think for one min they are going to tell you this not hardly.   I say this openly because there is very very very very few people these days that have the time, money and the means to do all of this themselves. Generations have changed and changed the people that live in them.  Times have changed and so have the people.  How many men is left like these old time breeders the Plotts the Weems the old mountain men, the old pit breeders who were some of the greatest at gene pooling.
 I can tell you very very very few and far between just like the perfect dog that produces nearly perfect every time.  It takes a young man to come from the bottom up to do the great things these old men have done and there is just not many willing to sacrifice what it takes and the times are just entirely different these days nobody lives in the era these old men did .

I think the era these old men lived in contributed greatly to who they are today .

[t.wilbanks]

TexasHogDogs,

If the dog has all of the traits that you were wanting to get from this line of dogs, why arent any of them showing in HIM??

Seems like you are refering to the average dog as a male.. So what about the female you breed him to?? Would you look for an average female from this line, or breed him to one of the super stars??

Seeing as this dog is only average in what he does, would you think that some of the pups would be the same??

If this dog DID throw another average dog, would that be the next one you would use for breeding??

And finally, if the dog only shows to be average, how do you know he DOES posses the traits you want?? Do you just have to breed him and find out??

Sorry for all the questions, but you dont learn if you dont ask!! 

[TexasHogDogs]

t.wilbanks

I know man there is a million ?'s to all of this and almost impossiable to cover them all are even know how to begin to anwser them because I dont know the lines of  dogs people are talking about are even how they went about breeding them to get to were they are at without sitting down and looking at the pedigrees and the dogs .

This is hard to explain typeing .  The dog is the way he is because he took the full brunt of the gene pool in other words he took all of the family genes and none of the outcross genes if there was much outcross in there to begin with and this is what makes him slower and just a avarage dog and have maybe some of the defects .  He is packing the purer gene pool you want but he is not the dog you want him to be because of his tightly packed gentic gene pool.  You have to outcross this dog now and he will throw all the traits of his family and his gene pool he is packing the outcross will bring all of these great family traits out he is packing.  If this dog is tightly bred from your line I would be looking to outcross him on a proven outcross that your line crosses with and maybe if you can have some of your on blood in this out cross dog works even better but you dont want much of your on blood in there maybe a 1/4 because your stud dog is so pre potent.


This dog is pre potnent stacked with the great gene pool it takes to make great dogs .  If the dog was bred correct to a outcross most all the pups are super stars .  If you breed this dog back into his line you will get more defective dogs that are no good you have to cross this dog in order for his gene pool to breath and take effect. You can cross him to a outcross dog that might have a 1/4 of his blood in them but do not breed him back to full family dogs.  If you breed him back to family dogs full family dogs you gonna get culls because his gene pool cannot withstand any more of his own genes they will just be defective dogs are culls most.

If this dog threw a few avarage dogs no I would cull them do not use them to breed to.

You have to know your dogs and your line of dogs.  If you have very tightly bred dogs with minimal outcross in them and are getting great percentages out of them and then you have the one avarage dog this may be the one,  you will have to breed him to find out .  This can only work threw tightly bred many years of linebred dogs of your on any other lines in there and there is no way for you to know because you do not know every line.    Thats what I say this all comes after years of breeding family dogs when you start to get high percentages of great dogs from heavy linebred with some inbreding  this is when you need to be on the look out for that one ole avarage Joe dog most the time he is the sleeper and he is the one that gets over looked because all his bros and sisters were great dogs and he was just avarage are so and these dogs are tight bred family dogs he is the sleeper a lot of the times that took all your family genes thats why he is the way he is he took no outcross.   

[TexasHogDogs]

As far as looking for your next breeding dog.  What we would do is take the best super star that this pre potent dog produced when we out crossed him and then start slowly breeding this dog back into the family again  and again as we got tighter and tighter we would be looking again for the Ole average Joe dog and as we got tighter and tighter we would be looking harder and harder . 

Also you can take one this pre potent dogs brothers are sisters out cross him are her to a pre determined line of dogs take the best out of that liter and again slowly start breeding this are these dogs back into the family each time getting tighter and tighter again and again looking harder and harder as each breeding got tighter for the next pre potent male are female just  the old average dog again .   As you get tighter and tighter he are she will pop up sooner are later and you just have to go threw all the motions again to determined if he are she is the real deal pre potent stud are brood gyp you are looking for .  Breeding is just a big circle is all it is .  You need only one cross in there that works the more crosses you got in there the more head ache it will be for you .

Damn my fingers hurt lol .  Hope it helps some of yall.

[t.wilbanks]

Thanks for the explanation...  I wasnt referring to any particular line, just tight breed lines in general ( lines with quality dogs of course )..

So this dog bred to a good outcross should show what he is packing... gotcha..

What breeding step would you take next? Since this was an outcross, their shouldnt be an average dog packing all the traits right?? Should be mostly (if not all) super stars if it was a good cross..

Would you breed the sire ( the average dog ) to one of his super star offspring?? That should tighten the line back up to the genes the averaged dog has...
 
What about one of his super star offspring to one of the sires super star littermates?? Should there be much difference between the two litters??

I can see what you mean about being hard to type all this.. Im having trouble just thinking on it!!