catch dog cull rate... percentages of present day dogs and dogs of the past...

[Reuben]

Seems like back in the 1980's one could go to the pound and get a pitbull and make a catch dog out of it...seemed like there weren't many culls then...not only that but quite a few apbt dogs were advertised from some of the best bloodlines around in those days...i didn't use many catch dogs but the ones I had caught right off.

just recently about 2.5 years ago I bought the yellow pit and he didn't want to catch solid...just wanted to bay...catch, let go and bay...

that yellow pit was just a backyard bred dog and I picked him for his looks and size as a pup...physically he was outstanding as well as a good pet...but catchdog he was not...he might have made a catch dog but if he didn't want to catch naturally I did not want him...so he went on to someone else. He was about 80 pounds of power and agility...





I then went and bought this game bred rednosed pitbull pup, registered adba apbt...nice dog as well...picture below does not do him justice...as he matured he transformed into solid bone and muscle and he was quick and agile too...sometimes he caught and sometimes he bayed...I probably could have made a catch dog out of him but I want natural ability and the natural instinct to catch in a pitbull...so he is gone too...he was about 80 or so pounds and quick and agile as well...

I was looking for an excuse to get rid of him...so that didn't help...I had changed my mind and goal...so made the decision to establish a strike dog pack first and I needed the room for the mtn pups...I knew I could put 2 cur pups in his kennel spot so didn't take much of an excuse to move him...the goal is to have mostly curs and maybe 2 cur dogs with 1/4 pit...



I am not a pitbull expert nor a catch dog expert but it seems that back in the 1980's and the early 1990's most pitbulls were just turned in to a bay in the pen or woods and they usually caught right off...maybe I just had bad luck and picked wrong....or is the catching quality of the average pitbull not as high as it once was??

if so...then the only theory that I can come up with is that back then we had quite a few folks that fought these dogs because it was not illegal to fight them or the law was not enforced like it is today...so the dogs of today are not tested as they once were...JMO

when I bought these 2 dogs I was using the old mindset that most pitbulls would catch...

BUT NOW...IF I WERE TO BUY ANOTHER PITBULL IT WOULD HAVE TO COME FROM A PROVEN HOG CATCHING FAMILY OF DOGS...but more than likely i will only breed a mtn cur to the right type of pitbull one time...and then dilute that down some...

so to anyone who is thinking about buying a catch dog pup for the first time...I recommend researching here on ETHD for a pup...but buy one from a proven line of catch dogs...

so lets hear some other thoughts on this subject...

[pigrig]

how does the little white fluffy one hold there ruben do u need to bleach it after each hunt.

[BIG BEN]

 So far Ive had very good luck with catchdogs proving to be worthy. I tend to stay away from rednosed pits, from my experience they tend to want to chew/fight the hog rather than lock down and hold. I believe the ability is there in all pitbulls to be a CD its just getting that light to turn on in them that takes a lil effort. The best CD I have had and still have crawled out of the pen the first time she saw a hog. I didnt want to give up on her because of her temperment and calmness. I put her in a situation(very small space) with a sure enough bad ass boar hog, she got beat up but locked down and never looked back from there. As for the cull rate, Im sure its much higher nowadays. With all the backyard breeders, the good blood of working pits is watered down and the drive the pitbulls use to have is almost gone. But this is normal and the pit is not the only breed that is effected by popularity among the public. When a breed goes mainstream its generally not good for the breed itself.

[Bar W]

I think ben hit the nail on the head. Also the Internet has expanded the reach and range of every type of dog breeder. It also expands and amplifies the fads. By this I mean couple people have some bad to the bone hard catching lock on the ear everytime APBT. They talk about the dogs a little couple people see em in action, make a post on a forum and all of a sudden everybody wants one of those dogs. Now it becomes the IT dog to have supply of good dogs can't keep up with demand and up your cull rate goes. I'm not an APBT expert but I think when you were useing them in the 80's was before they became so popular with the hood rats and every other city boy that wanted to look tuff, these city breedings were done for looks not working ability.

[Matt D]

I think everybody's opinion of a catch dog is different. Just because it catches does not guarntee it won't be a cull. They might have bad manners, or animal aggressive. I noticed that neither of the dogs you just posted came from proven bloodlines where both parents were catchdogs and there grandparents were catchdogs. I recently bred my Rocky dog to a bigger female to add a little size the pups were catching at 3 months old. It just came natural to them it's in there blood. I agree people have watered the APBT blood down and I can't speak on the caliber of dogs in the 80's at the pound I was young then  I still think the key to avoiding any culls catchdog or strike dog is proven bloodlines. If you want a good strike dog or mtn cur you wouldn't go shopping at the pound you would go to a proven breeder/hunter. The same applies for a well bred catchdog.

But to answer your question no doubt there is many more culls now a days then back in the 80's. People breed for color and head size not drive and performance. Also another idea to toss around, How many of those bulldogs at the pound were fight dog culls.? The rules and standards for keeping a dog at the pound or humane society has changed quite a bit. They run behavior and social tests on the dogs now a days before putting them up for sell. I think this has a big part to do with it.

Matt

[magnuml]

I am glad to see people being Honest about their dog's . I have seen Pit's do a Great job but i have seen more that could not do it all and had problems either jumping on dog's insted of the hog, grabbing any part of the hog, Fighting the hog, Not enough size to do the job and just giving up. Usually a cross to a Gritty cur is better. I have had Pit breeders come look at my dog's because they had a yard full that could not make a complete dog. Catching like ya'll know is usually the easy part and only one part of the game. One of the best Cur dogs i had got killed because a guy i brought on a hunt had a Pit that was supposed to have caught 300lb hog's all the time went in on a real 250lb hog , got cut and Quit! I have always said "people Lie, Dog's don't". Their are good and bad in all breeds but i am surprised from reading other threads that more Hunters don't have a Standard American Bulldog. One of the best breeders ever of working AB'S was from South Texas. Mr  Bill Hines. And yes i have heard stories but the dog's don't lie. The first time i seen a video of his i was hooked! I looked hard and found a man here in Florida that had 3 dog's from Bill and i went and bought a Pup. He was Amazing! I have a hard time believing i just got lucky on the first AB i ever had, and since have seen and bred too many and know it was not luck, it is just in them. For a Bull breed the complete Catch dog IMO. Their are several people that breed from time to time these proven working dog lines Today like American Ledgenz, Britt Garcia, Scott, Jam up bulldogs, Konfederate Kennels, Alan Scott, Gary Fuller ect. And many more across the south. don't get me wrong alot of breeders have messed them up also and the Bully dog's are not ment to be the complete catch dog in anyway. Some may work but their is a difference in catching a hog in a pen and being a catch dog that can run and have wind as ya'll know. But if you look for the straight standard bred dog's you will have better Good luck than bad.  And yes things were better 15 to 20 years ago with most  breeds overall. JMO. More people breeding to make a fast buck than not and going for looks over working ability.

[SCHitemHard]

ive only had 2 that were iffy on catch and they were bred right and registered dogs. my pound dogs came with attitude and would catch even if they were to loose all their teeth. luck i guess

now my question is whats up with that white dog and that yella pit in the second picutre

[Reuben]

ive only had 2 that were iffy on catch and they were bred right and registered dogs. my pound dogs came with attitude and would catch even if they were to loose all their teeth. luck i guess

now my question is whats up with that white dog and that yella pit in the second picutre

Chilly...is the white dog...originally I named him JIM BOB...but when my grandson was 3 years old he changed his name to CHILLY...I was thinking red like chili...so I told him we couldn't name him that name because it didn't fit...my grandson say's...grandpa...he is white like a snowman so he is real chilly... them kids can come up with some good ones...

Schittemhard...Chilly is a smart dog...he is not kissing butt...just trying to survive in the real world...

[Reuben]

how does the little white fluffy one hold there ruben do u need to bleach it after each hunt.

pigrig,

Chilly is my "hood" dog...he thinks he runs the backyard...the house... :)like most terriers he is a little kind of suicidal at times...the first westie we had named Jim Bob got killed by my alpha mtn cur years ago...the kids were in school and my wife and I were at work...the cur opened 2 gates and got over to Jim Bob and that was about it...hindsight is 20/20...instead of telling my wife what happened I should of just buried him and just said he probably got out and was stolen... :-Xsince then I have learned to make them get along instead of seperating them...

but to answer your question...I don't use him as my catch dog any more because my buddy likes taking  them 300 pound + boars alive...  besides...taking the dried blood out of that white coat takes too much of my time...

[Reuben]

Chilly...the hood dog...

[pigrig]

i like that a whole lot there ruben. my lovely wife also  has a minature foxy that runs the roost around here and is super hard on the tame pigs around the farm , cant help with that pit ? but i do run an ab cross a hard type border collie for a holder and he is a very intellegent catching machine

[pigrig]

[SwampHunter]

i see alot of pits go through the pound an there is some watered down big catchy looking suckers that would run from a mouse go through there , but if you take your time u will get one that will catch , i saw maybe 100 go through before i took one home he was a house dog an never seen a hog , i showed him one an he caught it , but i donno about the 80s i wasnt born till 89 but i know there sure is alot of pit lookin dogs that should be culled forsure

the problem is people are breeding for looks an some dont keep the gyp pened so half the pups come out fence jumper an half are pit but they think they all r full blood ,

i get all kinds of people think these dogs they have are pits when they may really only be 1/4 pit they cant look at a dog an see whats in it

[levibarcus]

The first cd I started was a stray pit. She would catch most hogs with another dog there, but on a good hog she would bay. I hunted her loose because she out hunted any cur dog I owned then or now probably. She would dang sure get gone and find pigs. I gave her to my buddy Jake and she hasn't barked at a hog since, just comes flying in like a 40 lb ninja and locks up on whatever size hog it is.

I have only started maybe 5 cds, but so far haven't had a cull, and all but one have been strays. Some have needed some encouragement and a few rounds of "training" to lock down without hesitation. Others haven't even been supposed to yet, just saw a hog and wanted to catch it. I guess I've been fortunate and had some good ones. Some have a better or cleaner style of holding, and that is what I am looking for more now than a dog to just catch.

[Bryant]

I can't say much about the catch dogs of the past because I've only been hunting using a catchdog for about 8 years.  I was very lucky early on and got my hands on two that have since proven to be the best I've yet to own....one of which I've been attempting to train a replacement for going on five years.  Zeus is a male dog bred by Krystal (Uglydog) and Ruby was a female AB from Joshua Kennels (of Florida at the time) that was a nice bulldog but had a slight female aggression issue.

I've since raised a full dogo and four American Bulldogs (all well bred dogs from working, proven backgrounds) and have yet to have one meet my expectations of a sure-enough catchdog.  For one to make the cut around my place, the criteria is very strict.  Perhaps the bar was set too high, but I continue to press on believing I will eventually find what I'm after.  The dogo I had was just a straight cull...no interest whatsoever in ANY kind of game.  I had one AB that was terribly skiddish (to the point of not being able to handle her) but the majority of my issues with the AB's have been breathing problems.  I know (because I still own one) how a catchdog should be able to recover after a catch and hold.  When I break a dog off that ran 50 yards and caught for a few minutes and that dog is breathing like no tomorrow....not good in my opinion.

I've got a Stover X Hines bred bitch now that's proving to be a pretty good hand.  I see a little bit of breathing issue with her but I feel part of that is because she pulls so dang hard on a lead and I haven't taken the time quite yet to correct that problem.  Time will tell.
 
I guess all this to say that over the eight years I've been messing with bulldogs I've come to realize that either I have the worst luck of all, or a sure enough good full-package catchdog is just as hard to come by and of just as much worth as a very nice cur.  I tend to believe the latter.

[TexasHogDogs]

I think you pretty much were right on target about the Pit Bull going down in quality of course this is not all of them but a whole whole lot of them have.  From the 1800's to around middle 1980's things never pretty much changed but of course when the law changed in 1976 things started to change and by 1985 you could start to see slight effects not much but it was there.  Then by the 90's sure nuff see the changes in the dogs and by 2000 if you didnt know who  you were getting dogs from you were in a heap of trouble .   There were lots of real dogs still in the 80's but as time went on more and more people could not test the dogs they way they could when the law as ok then the law gets more and more enforced and of course more and more people cannot test dogs they way they once did.

The part that got me was how the people themselves changes from great dog men really really great family people hard working men to 18 yr old crack heads and thugs by the 90's it was unreal and the whole game changed and for the most part went down the sewer and so did a lot of great dogs.


I have seen great dogs of today that could not make yesteryears culls !  I dont mess with the bulldogs no more and as far as yesteryears culls even the ones I have here on the yard are in that group good dogs in todays eyes culls n yesteryears eyes !  I have some of the old blood still today in the sperm bank and know a few that still do breed great blood and dogs sure been thinking of getting me a couple just to walk out side and look at .

JMO

[djhogdogger]

 We live out in a rural area and pits are dumped quite often. The first two cd's were dumped pits. The first time either of them saw a hog they wanted it. They naturally took to locking down on the ear.  Since this was my only experince with pits, I ASSUMED (  )  that all pits would catch solid natually.

 When people would say that they had a pit that bayed or that wouldn't catch solid, I thought they were crazy.... until someone closer to the city started giving us pits that were dumped in their area to try on hogs.

    These pits would either be dog aggressive or they wouldn't have anything to do with a hog. I was shocked at first. Now I know the difference between a pit that has the right stuff and a cull.

 I don't know who keeps dumping pits out in our area, but the ones that we rescued were good dogs. I guess someone out this way has some good blooded pits that they didn't want.

[bob]

I guess Im lucky because the first cd I got  at 4 months ran threw the little square in the cattle panel at the bay pen and caught , I bought a registered old family red nose [ game bred ] at 20 months , never seen a hog before I got and is one of the best , no aggression , follows a mule , walks beside me, ect. , I bred the two and kept 2 males and at 5 months they both will catch and working on handle at this time , theres a lot of people that dont have to much faith in red noses but thats all Ive owned and I havent seen a better all around CD with the kinda handle , and skills as my male red nose, skills as in walking threw a herd of cows and calfs on mule and staying 2 steps behind my mule  never leaving until a bay, not being dog aggresive ,  the only thing someone could  teach me is how to get them off without a break stick , I havent been able to get that one down yet , there aint no letting go

[Reuben]

I guess Im lucky because the first cd I got  at 4 months ran threw the little square in the cattle panel at the bay pen and caught , I bought a registered old family red nose [ game bred ] at 20 months , never seen a hog before I got and is one of the best , no aggression , follows a mule , walks beside me, ect. , I bred the two and kept 2 males and at 5 months they both will catch and working on handle at this time , theres a lot of people that dont have to much faith in red noses but thats all Ive owned and I havent seen a better all around CD with the kinda handle , and skills as my male red nose, skills as in walking threw a herd of cows and calfs on mule and staying 2 steps behind my mule  never leaving until a bay, not being dog aggresive ,  the only thing someone could  teach me is how to get them off without a break stick , I havent been able to get that one down yet , there aint no letting go

I had a fifty pound solid red red nosed pit that was an awesome catch dog...caught solid on the ear the first time he saw a pig...he was of the better known pitbull lines.