game bred dogs

[WayOutWest]

Gary is a good friend and he will sell you a dog but it won't be a price that most hog hunters wiil pay. He has Carver dogs but crossed with Heinzl and some other stuff.

[TChunter]

i have a jeep/chinaman and i love her...gamey..also have a male too..well be getting a litter from them but most probably wont go out to just anyone...i posted a pic of her in another thread..i cant post it from my phone to this one..

[bob]

I have a game bred old family red nose male , hemphill \ wilder bred , hes the real dill , 6 years old , not dog aggressive , luvs kids , will follow right behind a mule , and will catch a semi if it looked like a hog , Ive bred him twice , all the pups that were sent to hog hunting homes have turned out to be catch dogs or on there way , I have a 7 month old male out of him at home , no back up to him , I know nothing about the papers or about being watered down but hes got them , hes red and about 75 lbs , Im not interested in bull dog pups at this moment but will breed him to the right femlale , there is several people on this forum that has hunted behind him or has a dog from him





caught this one solo  380lbs

[bob]

this thread got my mind to going so I started to research my bulldogs  breeding or his pedigree and found out that this line of dogs that  are bred by mike morgan out of florida ,  by looking at the pedigrees these dogs were line bred very close in my book and I know nothing about this but very interested to learn more about this subject , now not to start a fight  but for the sake of me learning more about the term watered down in breding terms please explain , I would  come more to say they were inbred and maybee needed a little water LMAO [ OLD FAMILY  REDS] but on a seriuos note please explain

[Reuben]

this thread got my mind to going so I started to research my bulldogs  breeding or his pedigree and found out that this line of dogs that  are bred by mike morgan out of florida ,  by looking at the pedigrees these dogs were line bred very close in my book and I know nothing about this but very interested to learn more about this subject , now not to start a fight  but for the sake of me learning more about the term watered down in breding terms please explain , I would  come more to say they were inbred and maybee needed a little water LMAO [ OLD FAMILY  REDS] but on a seriuos note please explain

I can give this example of watered down...Warlock was a famous doberman in the 1950's...people claimed warlock bloodlines through the 1980's, 1990's, and even today...but I just wonder how much of warlock is in those dogs...that to me is watered down or... diluted to almost no relations...

now if warlock showed up to a high percentage and all dogs used from breeding resembled warlock then I would tend to believe that these dogs carried his traits...but warlock was a runt in his litter and he grew to the smaller size of the standard but his other good qualities were so above average that he became one of the best known dobermans...but then we have warlock dobermans in the 1990's that are 30 inches at the shoulders and warlock himself was probably 25 at the shoulder...

[bob]

I understand reuben  but when line breeding dogs for generations  to keep the blood as for my case old family reds  , to me they line bred alot , example  hemphills geronimo 2 was the father of 2 dogs bred to have to have wilders red dot and then this dog was bred back to hemphills geronimo 2  , when is it to close of a breeding , all the pedigrees ive looked at in this line is very close

[SouthernInferno]

Tight breedings, linebreeding/inbreeding, have been common practice with the OFRN strain tracing all the way back to its origins in the old family dogs from Ireland.  These dogs were tightly inbred but renowned for their gameness.  Because of this they were sought after by men such as william j. lightner and con feely.  These men utilized the irish imports in their pit dog programs.  In the states these old family dogs were used to create what we call the Old Family Rednose Strain.  These dogs were made most famous by bob hemphill.  He was a very well respected and active dogman.  Under his hands the ofrn dogs became known as the some of the gamest of their time.  Hemphill listed several open challenges in pit dog gazettes.  Wilder was friends with bob and received the dogs from him..   

Modern times many are still using the the hemphill/wilder ofrn dogs.  You will find them excelling in all aspects of dog sport; conformation, weight pull, shutzhound, hunting, etc..  They tend to be extremely intelligent hard working animals.  The reference to being watered down is likely in regards to the "paper breeders".  The strains popularity has long attracted peddlers looking to cash in on them.  These breeders usually do nothing to prove the dogs before breeding and are only after "pretty papers" with high percents of past famous dogs.  Occasionally even these programs do produce good dogs, but the odds are much lower than from an active performance breeder. 

Morgans dogs are solid straight hemphill/wilder stock.  In the woods they tend to be quick, agile, long winded, game and skilled at avoiding significant damage.  The only downside I have seen is several have been on the small side and don't serve as much of an anchor and while their bite is sufficient to perform the task its certainly not the hardest.  This description stands true for many other straight ofrn dogs produced by other programs.  While I do keep and work the straight stock, the best all around performance stock is with an out.  Ive tried several different crosses, but so far have had the greatest success with OFRN/Chavis.  These crosses tend to carry all the benefits of the OFRN line, but have the added benefit of possessing a bear trap for a mouth.         

[SouthernInferno]

And just as a note, when I refer to a hog dog being game it is not in the historical since.  I call  a game cd, just a dog that ive seen take a serious amount of damage on a hog and not quite.  Only one way about testing for true gameness and thats a thing of the past...

[bob]

southern inferno , thank you  Ive been searching for 2 weeks looking for info on the the wed joining sites just to ask questions , most people I had reply told me to research it myself , so much for there general discussion , Ive high lighted papers trying to figure out a method of linebreeding or what they did and why , most of the questions I ask I hit a road block , and the watered down statement made me want to be more knowledgeable in this area , Ive read that the garners line was very aggressive to people ect. high caution , my male is super freindly but anyway  my dog is line breed unbelievable on his daddy side by garners crocodile, no water there , and on the mothers side is woods and wilder and line bred also , to hemphills geronimo 2 , woods and wilders red inferno , Ive found pics of these dogs and but they woundnt let me look at pedigrees but Ive got six generation pedigree of my own , but what Ive found out that I have a dog that I had no idea of what I had ,{ he will catch so Ill buy} and also the at least in this case theres no water here and that being said I just felt stupid when I had papers on him but knew nothing about them , I luv this dog , very smart , can hunt any way you want ,  and know I have gained about 2 weeks of web knowledge , I even left a messege on mike morgan phone in florida , no return but I was on a search , thank you so much for your insite , most people just shut me down and welcome to the site

[SouthernInferno]

The garner HA talk is primarily rooted around chinaman.  My understanding is that he was not in fact tuly HA, but an excite biter.  He would bite to be released into another dog.  Thats not a behavior I would tolerate in a hog dog, but I wouldnt call him a man eater necessarily either.  Morgan is a busy guy and can be difficult to get a hold of sometimes.  What are some names close up in your dogs ped?  Ill see what I can find out. 

[bob]

garners & harringtons black mac is my dogs dad  and garners crocodile and garners pew is his parents on the mothers side is harringtons farry is his mother and woods wilder big red & morgans frank is her parents  thank you

[SouthernInferno]

This would be the ped for your dogs sire and dam. 

http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=221503
http://www.apbt.online-pedigrees.com/modules.php?name=Public&file=printPedigree&dog_id=275834

I would imagine you do have a very nice dog.  I dont have first hand experience with this exact cross, but have seen good ones down from both sides.  Surprised by his size though.  Wouldn't have expected him to be that large based on the breeding, but every once in a while it seems like any program pops out a big catch weight dog.  Hope this helps some. 

[sanman]

One of the pit posts from awhile back with all the old pictures kinda got me wondering about the first red nose gyp I had back in the early 90's. I had her papers for a long time, and have turned my house and shop upside down trying to find them, but can't. I see online pedigrees posted. Is that a deal where you can pay to search all the pedigrees, or do you just get access to that one. Had a real shady deal go down with three puppies off her with a guy in Greenville, and I wouldn't mind searching through to see if her name pops up anywhere. Too long ago to do anything, just the point.

[sanman]

Must have been posting at the same time inferno, that's what I was talking about, lol

[bob]

thank you for your time and opinion

[bob]

heres a pic of my pedigree on harringtons " 12 "  which I call gorge my cd  , I have read a lot of stuff about these dog , stories ect.  , inferno could you give me suggestions after looking at this to what kind of breeding would need to take place to keep the traits I like in my dog , I know that papers on a cd in the hog hunters world dont mean crap and in some peoples mind there a dime a dozen and not trying to start a arguement just learn more about line breeding and  how to keep the traits I like in my dog in him  , but if a guy wanted to try and keep what blood has been worked on for years what would you haft to breed to to make this happen , I hope you can read the ped , if anyone has storys or opinions on this thanks for the help, advise

[sanman]

This is the one I posted about above.  I know she was Boudreaux bred, but like I said, I can't find her papers anymore.

[bob]

do you use this dog as a catch dog ? Ive been searching pit forums for weeks learning history on my dogs blood line , hes very  very well bred , was told a lot about the dogs that came before him in his ped , I read storys about the dogs that fought in his ped , and a couple were the best of all time in some peoples opinion , I dont fight dogs but want to learn everything I can about this dog and the ones before him , Iv breed him twice , once back to a sister of his that the indian still has and once to my female , they have no papers , I was told my dog was heavy eli x carver bred with a lot of chinaman , one of the greatest dogs in history , eli x carver bred dogs without frisco is hard to find and thats what I have or been told , tom garner bred this dog , can anyone tell me more ?

[sanman]

Bob, that was the first pit I had. That would have been back in late '92 when I bought her as a pup. I hadn't ever hog hunted until she was about 4 months old. We went down to FL with some guys I was rodeoing with and took her. She was somewhere around 4-5 months at that time, and we threw her in a trailer with a shoat. Took her a couple minutes to figure it out, but after a couple whacks, she latched on. That was really her only exposure to hogs. I was traveling a lot back then, and she was our camper/truck guard. She went everywhere with us. She hated a cat, and that was what got her. She chased a cat out of my uncles vet clinic up in Tolar, and never made it across 377. Car got her. She was prob 9 at the time. Had one litter of puppies out of her, but I couldn't keep any at the time.
That why I was inquiring about the online pedigrees cause I can't find her papers anywhere around here. All this conversation about them got me curious.

[SouthernInferno]

First thing I would recommend is a true honest evaluation of him.  Grab a pen and pad and list out the good and bad about the dog.  Major and minor.  Breed worthy dog is going to have a larger group of positives than negatives, but no dogs perfect.  Got to be honest about it too, will only hurt your program if you make excuses or overlook the downfalls of a dog, its called kennel blindness and its been the downfall of several programs.  Look back over that list and figure out what traits are most important to you.  Really this process just helps in defining what to you is the perfect dog, how close a current one is to it, and helps set you up for what direction to take.   If a dog is lacking in an important trait for you then it is time for an outcross, find another line thats renowned for what yours is lacking and go from there. If all the most important traits are there then its time to look back into the ped for a line breeding or possibly even an inbreeding.    The goal of any breeding should be maintaining and improving upon what you have.  Linebreeding/inbreeding amplifies all traits, good and bad.  Your not introducing anything new into the gene pool.  Its often a good way to find out what your stock is lacking because it will bring it to the surface any flaws.  Its also the only way you are going to get consistency.  Out crosses bring to the table whats known as "hybrid vigor".  This is why you will often see exceptional dogs from 50/50 crosses.  If you keep doing crosses though you will never have any consistency. This is an extreme simplification of some breeding tactics, but its a start.  And of course there are always exceptions to the rules. 
 
In regards to your dog in particular I can give you plenty of insight and direction on the OFRN side of things, but my first hand experience with those particular garner dogs is limited, so you will be better of searching for someone actively working those dogs to figure out what they bring to the table and what they lack.  Just be be mindful of salesman tactics.  Many will say whatever it takes to sell you what they have.   

Remember
"The only time a Dogman tells the truth is.......when he calls the other Dogman a liar."

-Joe Corvino