Saltydog Catahoulas--doin' it my way

[Hogsnatchers]

If a dog does not pass muster, that does not mean it's a bad dog--it means the specimen will not work for what I need to breed back in to my program. Now that same dog might be just exactly what some one else likes in THEIR program. So place your pups.

However I have watched undesireable traits diminish and disappear with in MY lines, over the years. I have also watched desireable traits come on stronger and become more the rule than the exception within my dogs.

If you were to look at other dog breeds--let's say dobermans or rottweillers, or German Shepards, they have been breeding for desireable traits for 400 + years. Catahoulas are just beginning this genetic journey.

Ive tried to stay outta this but the above quotes raised some questions for me.  Now i do not have a breeding program or a line of dogs per say.  BUT... I know enough about breeding to know that if i dont have a "plan" so to speak i wont ha ve aline of consistant dogs.  If you like loose dogs and the occasional rough one comes along and you pass it to someone else instead of culling then "your line" can still be bred and now there are rough dogs out of your line.  It seems to me that if you culeld these and bred for genetic traits as you seems to say you do then your line would not vary so much.  Not to sound insulting here but the above quotes are a little contradicting when you talk about breeding for genetics and not for "fro fro" dogs.

Seems to me your talkin in circles.  and based on the posts you have posted are trying to convince people about your dogs.  Since you were so intent on bringin up others dogs with the YOU comments ill tell ya.  Ive got a couple out of different lines that i cant trace their genetics, I know what they can do and the few ive bred if the pups werent what was expected they got culled not passed down the road. 

Not meant to be argumentative just point out the inconsitancies in your ONE post.

I don't think your quite getting what he meant, I could be wrong in this but what I take his statement as would be he does not breed the dogs that do not have the traits that he is looking for. He picks the dogs out of his line that show the traits he wants to keep going and breeding for in his line example being long range and rough if the dog does not show those traits but does show good traits at being a little looser baying and medium range he may have a client or fellow hunter looking for those traits so instead of culling the dog he passes it to.someone looking to breed for those traits,while he still only picks the dogs out of the litters that show the traits he wants to see in his breeding program at his house continuing his name in the dogs. He has already said if they don't look genetically sound that they will not be passed on they will be dealt with accordingly. If your running a breeding program and a true breeding program for good hunting dogs your not ever going to do any good unless you can somewhat adapt to.different hunting styles while keeping the core program focused on great dogs and great genetics. 

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[rdjustham]

Yeah i got that.  but what i dont get is if he is breeding his line for a purpose wouldnt having dogs out of his line which do not meet his "standard" be passing a cull?  That is if my definition of a cull is correct as in one that does not meet the standards/requirements of its owner?  I know one mans trash is another's treasure but if i am breeding my dogs i would only allow dogs to leave my yard that fit my requirement.  Otherwise i would be selling culls so to speak.

But i guess i need to clarify my point a little.  If you a breeding for genetic traits you are isolating a trait be it rough loose color range etc. and attempting to breed either closer or away from that trait.  If you allow dogs which to do meet the standard you are looking for (culls for the program) to be passed around your "line" is not defined.  Now if all your looking for is a dog that will hunt and just because it dont hunt the way you like but still hunts i guess then you have met your standard.

Is that a better way to put it?

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Hog snathcers says it well.

Rdjustham, Thanx for your questions. I'd like to say, the term culling can be a pretty general term--meaning different things to different folks. To me, culling means not using a particular dog in my program-and that dog gets placed with someone who likes him better than me. You might say that dog is "my"cull, or you might say he is second best in my yard. Nobody in their right mind EVER sells their best dog(s). Kind of like a contest--there can be only 1 winner. The rest are losers. No shame in that, if all the losers gave their best, yet they are losers. That's the tricky part of breeding--finding the best of the best to keep in your program. The dog you deside is a cull, might really be a great dog. But he's lacking in some small way, according to who makes that decision--you. Don't mean he's not a great dog, just there is one greater that you prefer. Why can't some one else use that dog you decided against?

Another slant--- When there is a genetic problem, culling means euthanasia.

Yet Another for instance, If one day I come to the conclusion I simply have too many dogs to feed, I'll make an "A" list and a "B" list. I will cull down, choosing the dogs that best fit the profile I am breeding for. I hope this helps clarify where I'm coming from some what.

[Hogsnatchers]

I understand what your saying, and like he said he's continued to breed for the traits he looks for. Unless your keeping every pup from every litter your not going to know exactly how they all turned out and if they are all exactly up to the standards you expect but if you sold a pup to someone who hunts older dogs that do not hunt the same way but they please their owner and the pups learn to adapt to that hunting style and excel at it then its hard to say you haven't done a good job working toward breeding good dogs.

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[ED BARNES]

I THINK ITS LIKE SHOOTING, MAKE THE TARGET  SMALL AND YOU SHOOT BETTER. I FYOU ARE SHOOTING AT A BASKETBALL SIZED BULLSEYE YOU CAN HIT IT BUT THAT DONT MAKE IT A GREAT SHOT

[Bryant]

Saltydog,

I understand what you're saying, although I respectfully disagree.  To me a standard is a standard...be it color, temperament, disposition, hunting style or baying ability.  You speak of the Catahoula standards as set forth in the NALC and I must assume you are speaking mainly in terms of conformation.  When I make a breeding, I'm also looking for a standard in the way my dogs perform....a certain way they must act in order for me to say they meet my "standards".

I understand the fact that if the dog doesn't meet my personal standards, it may meet someone else's and be a good dog to them.  Unfortunately, I'm not into breeding to suit anyone but myself and so my evalutaion of each dog is done with the same basic criteria.

This is a silly and very hypothetical scenario, but say there was a client who liked dogs with a crooked leg and you just happen to have some pups born with crooked legs.  They may not suit you, but over there is a guy who they will suit just fine.  Do you pass them along, even though they don't meet your standard?  Now that's a silly analogy, but do you see my point?  In addition, when placing pups out of a line where there tends to be great diversity, how can one be sure an owner is getting the type dog he/she desires?

Not trying in any way to argue or anything like that...I just enjoy learning about how others go about their programs.

Bryant   

[rdjustham]

Another point i was getting at is the "trait" of your line.  When asked how your dogs hunt you couldnt answer because each one is different.  What is the trait your after since you are breeding hunting dogs.  Right?  If you ask the guys here who have bred their dogs for years and years like bryant, mike, noah, txhogsanddogs they can tell you how their lune hunts.  They know because they understand what they are after and like you said you find a place for the dogs that dont fit in your program.  In my opinion if i were to seriously start breeding my dogs i wouldnt let one out of my yard till i could tell you eith absolute certainty how they were gonna hunt period.  Granted every litter has an odd ball or two but if you have had your line since the 60s you wouldnt have made a big deal about it.  I have my opinion based on your posts and ill "peddle" down the road now.  Best of luck figuin out what ya got.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Bryant, respectfully, What do you disagree with? Seems we are saying the same thing--no?

I will clarify:
 I did not go into what the NALC creed/standards are. Yes you are assuming. Read their standards--they ARE good, and an excellant starting point for anybody wanting to start up.

Also, all I said, is that my dogs, like anyone elses, are individuals and therefore vary in their individual abilities, and I mean according to me and how I look at them. I never stated how MUCH those variations might be. You seem to be seeing this according to what "vary" means to you--perhaps? I have never implied that my approach is the best, or only way. I respect my fellow dogmen and their approach.

I NEVER breed dogs to suit someone else. I breed them to suit me. I sell off every dog that is not the best according to my genetic goals. People buy my dogs because they like what they are all about, and that suits them fine.

Yes, I pass on dogs that do not meet my standards, as long as they are genticly sound. No one in their right mind sells their BEST dogs--rather, they sell their second best. You may drive out of my yard with a dog I culled, thinking to yourself  "I can't believe he sold this one over the one he kept!" We all see different things, looking at the same thing. One man see a beautiful corvette, and his buddy sees the beautiful gal driving it. It's a great package, but means different things to different people--because we are individuals.

 I can't keep them all--wish I could. If I could not sell them, my kennel is staggnated and not paying for itself.  I can't keep everydog that was born in my program.  KILL every dog that didn't make my cut does not make sense and is inhumane. Why shouldn't someone else benefit from these good dogs? Those dogs will benefit THEIR program. It will never affect MY program again, unless I sought that particular dog out and bred to it. Whatcha think?

[rdjustham]

[quote author=Saltydog Catahoulas link=topic=53801.msg368013#msg368013 date
 I can't keep them all--wish I could. If I could not sell them, my kennel is staggnated and not paying for itself.  I can't keep everydog that was born in my program.  KILL every dog that didn't make my cut does not make sense and is inhumane. Why shouldn't someone else benefit from these good dogs? Those dogs will benefit THEIR program. It will never affect MY program again, unless I sought that particular dog out and bred to it. Whatcha think?
[/quote]

If i came to buy a pup from you at just weened how SHOULD it hunt?  No matter what dam and sire!  IE how do your dogs hunt?

Simple straight forward questions.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Another point i was getting at is the "trait" of your line.  When asked how your dogs hunt you couldnt answer because each one is different.  What is the trait your after since you are breeding hunting dogs.  Right?  If you ask the guys here who have bred their dogs for years and years like bryant, mike, noah, txhogsanddogs they can tell you how their lune hunts.  They know because they understand what they are after and like you said you find a place for the dogs that dont fit in your program.  In my opinion if i were to seriously start breeding my dogs i wouldnt let one out of my yard till i could tell you eith absolute certainty how they were gonna hunt period.  Granted every litter has an odd ball or two but if you have had your line since the 60s you wouldnt have made a big deal about it.  I have my opinion based on your posts and ill "peddle" down the road now.  Best of luck figuin out what ya got.

It would be nice if there was only "one" trait to breed for, but you misunderstand, there are many traits we breed for. And yes, dogs are individuals--they will vary in their perfomance, to different degrees. If you want a very general answer, it's pretty pointless, and about anyone can figure that one out.

Who said I couldn't tell you how my dogs hunt? I chose not to, considering the atmosphere the question was asked.

Respectfully, You seem to assume alot. I said I can trace my bloodlines back into the '60's. I didn't say I had my bloodlines since the '60's. I've been raising MY lines for near 23 years now. Let's not "embelish" what I said, please. I know what I got in my dogs, thankyou. I'll take the luck, though. Best wishes to you peddlin' down the road.

[ED BARNES]

SALTY, YOU HAD THE CARDS STACKED AGAINST YOU FROM THE GET-GO. ALOT OF ITS JUST GOOD FUN,I THINK, RAZZIN BUT THE SPOTTED DOGS ARE THE UNGLY STEPCHILD HERE. I WAS A CATAHOULA MAN FOR OVER TEN YEARS MYSELF. CATAHOULAS, AND THEIR BREEDERS SEEM TO HAVE A STIGMA AS BREEDING FOR COLOR, AND ALOT OF THAT HAS MERIT. THEN YOU WERE EVASIVE ABOUT YOUR DOGS AND MORE BELLS WENT OFF. THEN PARTS OF YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD CAN BE TAKEN AS BREEDING WITHOUT MUCH ZEROING IN. THEN THE "CULL" WORD WAS USED AND THATS DYNAMITE AT A GAS STATION. IM CHAUKIN IT ALL UP AS A "LOST IN TRANSLATION" KIND OF DEAL. ?

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

If i came to buy a pup from you at just weened how SHOULD it hunt?  No matter what dam and sire!  IE how do your dogs hunt?

Simple straight forward questions.
[/quote]

Again, RDjustham, a very general question. If you were in my yard to buy a puppy, the most important thing for you to ask IS how do the parents hunt, what's their disposition, what's their conformation like, blah blah.

Given that the parents hunt well enough by most standards, and other questions answered meet your standards, and you buy your pick of the litter, the rest depends upon you, as a handler. The blood(genetics) runs true--always does in the good lines. It's up to you to bring out the best of those genetics. Genetics is giving you the package that will DEVELOPE into a dog similar to his/her parents. The rest is environmental. For instance, if a handler takes his puppy and takes him to the woods once a week when he's 6 weeks old allowing the pup to gain experience, he will be way ahead of the other guy who bought a litter mate, and stuck him on a chain until he is a year old, then takes HIS pup to the woods. It ain't rocket science which pup is going to be the better woods dog.  This is an example of two littermates--genetics are the same, yet their environment dictates how the outcome comes together.

There is no magic bullet answer. The best we can do is generally, my dogs all work great. Generally, this dog goes 1200 yards and checks in every 45 minutes--blah blah. But none of that matters so much. I have seen so called dog handler wreck a jam-up strike dog in 5 minutes. Take that same dog and put him in a good handler's hands, and the dog charges hell with a glass of water.

 So, RDjustham, can you answer the question, hows "that" dog work? It all depends on a lot of things that in the end, doesn't it.

I have had people ask if I guarantee my dogs to hunt. The answer is, yes, I guarantee my dogs to hunt-----for me. I can't guarantee they will hunt for you, though. I do not guarantee a handler's ability. Dogs are great judges of character. (I guarantee my dogs to be genticly and vet sound, though)

[Reuben]

saltydog... I agree with you on selling the culls to hunters who do not care to breed dogs...when I bred mtn curs for almost 20 years my culls were pretty good hog dogs...but the cream rises to the top and when line breeding and inbreeding the line tends to purify pretty quick when selecting correctly...Breeding the right dogs is half of it and the other half is selecting the best pups for hunting and breeding...there can be compromising at the beginning...and there shouldn't be much or any compromising once you are in the second generation and for sure not in the third generation...I never really cared what color as long as it wasn't white or too much white trim...I did place high importance on nose, hunt, intelligence, conformation, stopping ability, sticking to the track and putting a hog on the other end of those tracks... and I placed a high importance in the ability to find a hog...and another thing...when someone asked me what type of dog I bred I didn't have to think about it because it was burned in my brain...don't get me wrong...I would spend months and months on trying to decide who I was going to breed and why...

the pups were on a point system as to their progression and this point system was a major contributor on my decision making...and it was very important to me to know at what age all this happened...because I wanted hog dogs that at a year of age were hunting with my best dogs...they didn't have to be finished just hunting hard and finding hogs...


it is near impossible in getting consistency even with line breeding because some of the dogs in the pedigree will not be related and like you mentioned earlier...there is quite a bit of variance within some of our hunting breeds...so some of these inconsistencies will tend to show up...but one must breed the pups that carry the traits that we are striving for...I will compromise a little on color and size but not on the other traits...

THE CREAM RISES TO THE TOP...

apparently your program is working for you... so keep on keeping on...

Welcome aboard...

[YELLOWBLACKMASK]

I have had people ask if I guarantee my dogs to hunt. The answer is, yes, I guarantee my dogs to hunt-----for me. I can't guarantee they will hunt for you.
[/quote]

Might have read this wrong and am not wanting to take this statement out of the intended context.

Did this mean if someone purchases a pup from you that does not perform to their intended standard..you would not be susceptible to taking it back for replacement or refund?

Just curious also what the average price per pup you require? 

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

SALTY, YOU HAD THE CARDS STACKED AGAINST YOU FROM THE GET-GO. ALOT OF ITS JUST GOOD FUN,I THINK, RAZZIN BUT THE SPOTTED DOGS ARE THE UNGLY STEPCHILD HERE. I WAS A CATAHOULA MAN FOR OVER TEN YEARS MYSELF. CATAHOULAS, AND THEIR BREEDERS SEEM TO HAVE A STIGMA AS BREEDING FOR COLOR, AND ALOT OF THAT HAS MERIT. THEN YOU WERE EVASIVE ABOUT YOUR DOGS AND MORE BELLS WENT OFF. THEN PARTS OF YOUR FIRST POST IN THIS THREAD CAN BE TAKEN AS BREEDING WITHOUT MUCH ZEROING IN. THEN THE "CULL" WORD WAS USED AND THATS DYNAMITE AT A GAS STATION. IM CHAUKIN IT ALL UP AS A "LOST IN TRANSLATION" KIND OF DEAL. ?

Hi Ed, I don't mind some razzin', do a little myself. I give honor to the yellow dogman, if they give me honor. I do not care what another dogman says so much about his dogs so much as what his dogs say about themselves. Heck I probably trust a few yellowdog breeders better than some catahoula breeders I've run into. But I've seen some sorry yellow dog breeders, too. There is good and bad in all breeds. My take is a good dog needs to do what he's bred to do.

Example: I am color blind until I see all the traits I breed for expressed in the pups I keep. Now if both pups are equal so to speak, and I have to chose the best one, he may have color, or he might be the solid one--I do not care. My current litter, for instance, has 3 solids and 4 of the most drop dead gorgeous red leps you ever feasted your eyes on. I need a male and a female from this cross. Three of the leopards are sold off, and my pick of the litter is a SOLID liver male pup--so he's my new "prospect". He shows me what I'm looking for. One red lep female outshined the rest of the females in the litter, so she's my new "prospect". I could give a rat's behiney about the leps being prettier. Pretty to me is my catahoulas stretching a big boar 6-ways to Sunday. That's my favorite color.

Not zeroing in--just the opposite--that's why I have a breeding program. The "cull" word. We're big boys, no?

Evasive, maybe so it seems. I did not care for the atmosphere--I can smell a no win situation. Nuff said.

  It's not my mission to "convert" anyone on my ideas or merch--I could care less. Some honestly are interested in what makes my kennel tick, and I'm fine to share my viewpoints. It's just my viewpoint. Thus this thread.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

saltydog... I agree with you on selling the culls to hunters who do not care to breed dogs...when I bred mtn curs for almost 20 years my culls were pretty good hog dogs...but the cream rises to the top and when line breeding and inbreeding the line tends to purify pretty quick when selecting correctly...Breeding the right dogs is half of it and the other half is selecting the best pups for hunting and breeding...there can be compromising at the beginning...and there shouldn't be much or any compromising once you are in the second generation and for sure not in the third generation...I never really cared what color as long as it wasn't white or too much white trim...I did place high importance on nose, hunt, intelligence, conformation, stopping ability, sticking to the track and putting a hog on the other end of those tracks... and I placed a high importance in the ability to find a hog...and another thing...when someone asked me what type of dog I bred I didn't have to think about it because it was burned in my brain...don't get me wrong...I would spend months and months on trying to decide who I was going to breed and why...

the pups were on a point system as to their progression and this point system was a major contributor on my decision making...and it was very important to me to know at what age all this happened...because I wanted hog dogs that at a year of age were hunting with my best dogs...they didn't have to be finished just hunting hard and finding hogs...


it is near impossible in getting consistency even with line breeding because some of the dogs in the pedigree will not be related and like you mentioned earlier...there is quite a bit of variance within some of our hunting breeds...so some of these inconsistencies will tend to show up...but one must breed the pups that carry the traits that we are striving for...I will compromise a little on color and size but not on the other traits...

THE CREAM RISES TO THE TOP...

apparently your program is working for you... so keep on keeping on...

Welcome aboard...

Much wisdom, Reuben. Happy hunting, Sir.

[ED BARNES]

WHAT I MEANT ABOUT CULLING WAS PEOPLES IDEAS ABOUT IT, NOT ABOUT TEARS IN EYES

[ED BARNES]

I BET WEVE ALL BEEN DRUNK AN MET SOMEONE THAT WE WERE JUST BOUND AND DETERMINED TO DISLIKE AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH THEY AGREED WITH US WE FOUND SOME LITTLE THING TO ZERO IN ON AND DISAGREE. I KNOW I HAVE. A COUPLE TIMES THEY TURNED OUT TO BE FRIENDS.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

I have had people ask if I guarantee my dogs to hunt. The answer is, yes, I guarantee my dogs to hunt-----for me. I can't guarantee they will hunt for you.

Might have read this wrong and am not wanting to take this statement out of the intended context.

Did this mean if someone purchases a pup from you that does not perform to their intended standard..you would not be susceptible to taking it back for replacement or refund?

Just curious also what the average price per pup you require? 
[/quote]

That's correct. I cannot guarantee any handler's ability, and I do not want damaged goods back. And I sure do not play the "Lemme try your dog for a month" deal, either. A good handler will bring out the best in a dog, and won't need such guarantee anyways. I CAN guarantee my dogs to be vet sound, which includes genetic soundness.

I do not discuss prices on a public forum. Contact me privately if you wish to. Thanx for your interest.

[Saltydog Catahoulas]

Well said, Ed, on both your comments.