Like to hear from cow dog men

[ked]

if you use a cur or cat on cows, I like to hear what you expect your dogs to do start to finish.
When I started with curs in the 90's My dogs had a certain style/method. After a family tragedy I quit for a while and the cur dogs I have now seem to have a different style.
 Be detailed as you can. Thanks

[halfbreed]

well lets see not to be a smart ars but i expect em to find , bark , bite , bunch and lead bout sums up my expectations

[ked]

HB describe or draw a picture of "bunch".
When do you expect them to bite?
Describe "lead".

[jdt]

HB describe or draw a picture of "bunch".
When do you expect them to bite?
Describe "lead".

x s 2  please elaborate halfbreed.

[Kid7]

Wat i think he means is if there is more than one cow to keep them in a group

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

You could write a book on style while holding cattle.....I am sure I have written about what I expect in a cowdogs bay style, you might search my posts.

[ked]

Paul you were one I was hoping to hear from. I'll check your posts.

[Stick]

I don't own any but Ive seen some sure nuff cowdogs, they unloaded walked right behind his horse until sent, which was the third set of cows we rode thru, they circled till we pushed then led, they called off by name to water, and loaded up after. That to me is a finished cowdog

[halfbreed]

dang boys . well lets see i was in a rush earlier . but when working and penning cows for people or getting ready to sort out for the sale . first the dogs had to go and find the cows while i sat at the trap . i would hear the dogs working in the bottom . now is where the biting comes in and this is not an aggresive biting but an attention getter some of them ol cows with calves wanna fight . once they get the cows respect as cows will do they bunch up . sometimes i would just drive by and survey the cattle and do a count and check for any doctoring needed done. or for worming and sorting i would let the dogs work em in a bunch for a bit and then holler bring em and honk the horn on the truck and head to the trap . once in the trap my catahoula gyp stayed at the gate and ol jack the 1/2 cat 1/2 walker would heal by my side and help me sort pairs to push in the ajoining pen  . now these is dog broke cows working wild cattle is another story. i used to free range my partners cows out in the cpr land in waxahachie and let them graze till some city folks called the county and we [ the dogs an me ] would go find em bark at em bite em bunch em and bring em home . the county sherrifs used to enjoy coming out and watching the show usually at night with the lights flashing the cows got used to the red and blue lights flashing but i never will brings back to many bad memories lol i sure miss my dogs i sold em when i moved to east texas . jack is still going strong baying hogs and little julie is no longer with us she got to hot chasing pigs and went to work cows and ran herself to the promised land

                                                 


                          this is jack one good smart dog listened to me better than my child understood many hand signals worked cows and hunted pigs and had the smarts to know when to do what .

[halfbreed]

getting a dog to handle extreemly well is THE most important part of this process one day i'll sit down and tell a storie or two about all the [ new gates ] me an jack managed to install in that worn out fence lol that boy was hell on wheels when i first started him out. he did not know nor understand the words easy or back lol

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

There are several things I watch closely about how my dogs work on a set of bayed cattle. I will pick one tonight and add to it later if I can.

A given that the dogs have got a lot of circle and work at good speed around the herd at all times.

I look for the "trigger of engagement" in the dog.

This trigger is the distance a cow protrudes from the herd and that distance provokes individual attention from the dog. Before the cow steps out some distance the dog treats the herd as "one". Eye contact is not made with any one cow, the dog is working a hard circle and looking at the whole and not anyone part. Eyes are allways moving and the dog is "feeling" the offside by watching for any "flow" of the cattle indicating leaking on the off side. This is a settled bay, a state of equilibrium exists between the movement of the cattle and the strength of the dogs.

With un-broke cattle this state of equilibrium will not last long. A cow will test the dog or dogs by starting to leave the herd. This happens in stages for the most part and I am looking for how and when the dog reacts to this challenge.

The question is which of the following triggers the dog to focus on the individual and not the herd as a whole.

1.Head up, edge of herd, looking for a place to go, ears ridged.
2.Head out in the open to the jaw.
3.Head and neck out.
4.Elbow out.
5.Rib out.
6.Flank out.
7.Hip exposed but not tail.
8.Tail just clear of the herd.
9.1/2 a body length out.
10.Full body length out.

Someplace between 1 and 10 the dog will engage the cow. This is a genetic trait and will vary from dog to dog. What the dog does when he is triggered is just as important and when. I do not like for a dog to bite first, I consider this to be a sign of weakness in the dog that he wants to bite first crack out of the bag.

By 4 the dog had better be stopped at the cow and be head to head barking and aggressively holding his ground. The dog should not bite if the cow just holds her ground and keeps her head up. Any forward motion of the cow, or lowering of the head, after the dog has faced up should result in a bite or attempted bite. The dog should stay engaged untill the cow returns to the herd.

Some dogs will trigger at any of these points, I prefer 4 through 9.

As the cow is returning to the herd I pay very close attention to the exact moment the dog "releases" the single and returns to working the "whole". At a minimum when the cows jaw is inside the herd the dog should release, but I prefer for the release to happen when the cow is still a body length outside the herd but traveling straight back in. This one body length release helps to insure the integrity of the bay and prevents the cattle from scattering as a single is driven back. A dog that stays hooked to a cow and runs back into the herd with that cow is a big problem for me personally. That type of dog is a weaker dog with a chip on its shoulder for that particular cow and that will break a bay every time.

I don't really want a dog to ever put teeth on a cow unless they are out past their rib and a half of a body length is better. A stronger dog will use his bark, aggressiveness, and body position to control the stock and use his bite as a last resort.

One thing can change this and that is a bad dog fighting cow. One that has been charging the dogs many times and is on the fight. This type of cow is not submitting even though she returns to the herd, she stays on the outside instead of pushing to the middle. She will have her head out and down, which is a direct challenge to the dog. The dog is free to bite her every chance he gets on the edge of the herd if he can do it without spilling the bunch. The dogs know that the herd will not settle and lead out untill this type of cow has submitted and sought the middle, so they will apply all the pressure they can.

When the dog disengages the cow is more important to me than when he engages that cow.

Watch your dogs work and look for these traits.

Thanks,
Paul T

[ked]

Thank you Paul. You affirmed the style of dog I gathered with prior to 2005. Some of The dogs I have now do not have the circle (which to me settles the bunch). I do a lot by myself and the style of "lead" dog I have now causes me & my horse to work harder. Hard to write and describe it, and though I get them penned just seems to weak to me, especially looking at my previous line. These dogs are from a long history of cow dogs they just do it different.
I appreciate you taking the time and thought to explain your dog's style and your expectations.

[hank]

Good post! Another please.

[levibarcus]

This is the kind of thread that keeps me coming back to this site. This is valuable info for a novice like myself. I have been thinking about starting a couple dogs on cows, but a cowdog with no control is a huge liability for my cows and neighbors cows. Knowing what to look for in a dogs working style is something I am studying. I think it separates a dog that barks at stock from a stock dog. I'll be watching this thread.

[bigo]

If your driving a hundred head through thick woods and its five miles to the pens, how many head are you going to get there with, with dogs going around and around a set of cattle? That old fighting cow would quit fighting if the dogs would quit fighting her and lead on out and leave her alone 'till she tries to leave. Every good cow dog man I ever knew, who worked cattle in big bad places, would cull dogs that came between the horse and the cow. That going round and round cattle while your driving, might work on twenty head of gentle cattle in a hundred acre hay meadow.

[Silverton Boar Dogs]

bigo, I have no experance gathering "twenty head of gental cattle in a hundred acre hay medow"

I don't believe I said anything about dogs circleing while driving 

[halfbreed]

  ^^^^ x-2 once it is time to go or lead out . the dogs just make sure their ain't no stragglers or runners . and yes the old cow will quit fighting and head out a good dog knows when it's time to just lay back and push her to the bunch . tell us more on what you've watched bigo .

[ked]

Circling was for settling then when the horse gets there the dogs stay opposite the horse. I always watched afar until the bunch was ready.

Bob, I respect you as a dog man and would like to hear how the style of dogs you used settled the bunch and such.

[reatj81]

I don't own any but Ive seen some sure nuff cowdogs, they unloaded walked right behind his horse until sent, which was the third set of cows we rode thru, they circled till we pushed then led, they called off by name to water, and loaded up after. That to me is a finished cowdog

Was this cowboy from around Huntsville?

[bigo]

I guess I took the circle the cows at all times as all the time, sorry. I wont a dog to circle and bunch cattle 'till its time to drive, then its my job to point them in the right direction and move them and the dogs lead. The worst mistake I see made with dogs is pushing the cattle over the dogs and not giving the cattle time to settle. The thing I see with alot of dogs is fighting cattle too much and holding cattle up too much. Thats like dogs that keep fighting one of those old big dog smart hogs, if he can't get comfortable and not feel threatened, he is going to change zip codes.